Stance Question

[Tizzo]

I had my first match this last Saturday, it was a blast and I can't wait until the next one. They had a guy taking photos throughout the day, this would be the first time I've ever seen a photo of myself shooting. I'm looking at these, and it looks like I'm leaning way too far forward. Any thoughts/advice on stance, grip, etc.? Thanks.

[Skydiver]

http://www.powerfactorshow.com/2011/03/27/episode-16-stance-strong-weak-hand/

[waktasz]

I don't like to lock my elbows all the way out. They loose the ability to act like shock absorbers then.

[Wild Gene]

I don't like to lock my elbows all the way out. They loose the ability to act like shock absorbers then.

Yep, let your whole body work for you. You look aggressive, but looks more like your left foot is back more than your right? I am the exact opposite if that is the case.

There are guys that have been shooting a lot longer and still don't look as good!

WG

Ps. you are braver than I am, like I'd want this bunch of yahoos telling me how I look (especially Grumpy One).

Edited April 4, 2011 by Wild Gene

[Hi-Power Jack]

grip looks good (to me) from the left side,

but on the right side, your weak hand index

finger isn't on the front of the trigger guard,

is it?

[Tizzo]

grip looks good (to me) from the left side,

but on the right side, your weak hand index

finger isn't on the front of the trigger guard,

is it?

My weak hand index finger is wrapped around my strong hand, I think you're seeing my weak hand thumb stick out past the trigger guard.

[10ring]

When you fire a shot, do the sights come back on target without you having to muscle the gun?

[Tizzo]

When you fire a shot, do the sights come back on target without you having to muscle the gun?

Most of the time yes, sometimes no.

[Braxton1]

The only real disadvantage of being SO aggressive in the stance is that it fixes you in-place, unless your next shooting position is straight forward. In other words, if you had to move in any other direction, you'd have to stand up straighter to get re-centered and then move your center-of-gravity towards the new direction.

Mike Plaxco once said it best: "Keep your ears in front of your shoulders and your shoulders in front of your ankles.". That's about all that is really needed, because recoil (especially from "practical" guns - less than 44 Magnum) comes at you in very brief pulses. As long as your center-of-gravity is far enough forward that your head isn't rocking back on each shot, you're golden.

Everyone has an opinion on the subject, but I prefer to lock my elbows as you do. In my logic, that reduces the amount of potential pivot points in the gun mount. The only two places that move are the wrists and the shoulders. The recoil "shock absorbers" are the pectoral muscles, especially when the shooter has the shoulders rolled forward a bit.

Congratulations on your first match! Keep asking questions and thinking critically. You'll only get better!!

Edited April 5, 2011 by Braxton1

[lumpygravy]

I'll preface all of my comments by saying you should continue to experiment and you'll eventually find what works for you. Congrats on your first match!

Pic #1:

You look to be bent forward at the waist a little more than I would think necessary or comfortable. Those cargoes hide how much if any bend you have at the knees which is an important part of a balanced stance. I prefer a fairly upright body/torso position and a wider base with my strong side foot a little back from the weak side foot with sort of a "whole body" lean forward with my balance point just barely on the balls of my feet.

The full arm/elbow lock has been mentioned.

Pic #2:

It's a minor thing. My observation is that your weakhand grip appears to have either slipped during recoil or it wasn't established in contact with the triggerguard from the start. On the draw and push out, I like to feel the triggerguard with my weakhand index finger so ensure that this hand is as high as possible. Some guys like to put a little something, something (i.e. grip tape) under the triggerguard to provide a tactile sensation for confirmation.

You also appear less bent at the waist in this pic because your torso more or less follows the vertical lines of the stage props in the background (is that snow?). I'm sure these pics were from two different part of the COF, perhaps even different COFs.

Photos are good analytical tools. If you have access to video, that's even better.

[Tizzo]

I'll preface all of my comments by saying you should continue to experiment and you'll eventually find what works for you. Congrats on your first match!

Pic #1:

You look to be bent forward at the waist a little more than I would think necessary or comfortable. Those cargoes hide how much if any bend you have at the knees which is an important part of a balanced stance. I prefer a fairly upright body/torso position and a wider base with my strong side foot a little back from the weak side foot with sort of a "whole body" lean forward with my balance point just barely on the balls of my feet.

The full arm/elbow lock has been mentioned.

Pic #2:

It's a minor thing. My observation is that your weakhand grip appears to have either slipped during recoil or it wasn't established in contact with the triggerguard from the start. On the draw and push out, I like to feel the triggerguard with my weakhand index finger so ensure that this hand is as high as possible. Some guys like to put a little something, something (i.e. grip tape) under the triggerguard to provide a tactile sensation for confirmation.

You also appear less bent at the waist in this pic because your torso more or less follows the vertical lines of the stage props in the background (is that snow?). I'm sure these pics were from two different part of the COF, perhaps even different COFs.

Photos are good analytical tools. If you have access to video, that's even better.

Yes, that is snow, MN in defrost. It was very muddy that day. The Photos are from two different COFs, the first from a classifier where we were stationary in a box, the second had lateral movement transition between open targets and ports.

I'm thinking of getting a camera, I could use my phone, but I'm leery about handing my phone to strangers.

Thanks for the feedback.

[dagger10k]

A good thing to do if you want to improve your stance, and get a little more aggressive, is to move your feet a little father apart. Your feet look very close together, which is going to make it difficult accelerate quickly, and harder to index authoritatively, since you drive the gun in transitions mostly with your legs.

Have a look at the stance of any top level shooter shooting a field course, and you are likely to see a tiny bit less forward bend at the waist, a wider, lower base, and a little more arm bend. Being a little more relaxed with your stance will go a long way.

Here's a nice aggressive, but relaxed stance from Jessie Abbate:

Edited April 5, 2011 by dagger10k

[Skydiver]

Pic #2:

It's a minor thing. My observation is that your weakhand grip appears to have either slipped during recoil or it wasn't established in contact with the triggerguard from the start. On the draw and push out, I like to feel the triggerguard with my weakhand index finger so ensure that this hand is as high as possible. Some guys like to put a little something, something (i.e. grip tape) under the triggerguard to provide a tactile sensation for confirmation.

Note that if you're shooting in USPSA (or IPSC) Production Division, putting grip tape under the trigger guard will bump you to Open. See Appendix E4.

Edited April 6, 2011 by Skydiver

[lumpygravy]

Pic #2:

It's a minor thing. My observation is that your weakhand grip appears to have either slipped during recoil or it wasn't established in contact with the triggerguard from the start. On the draw and push out, I like to feel the triggerguard with my weakhand index finger so ensure that this hand is as high as possible. Some guys like to put a little something, something (i.e. grip tape) under the triggerguard to provide a tactile sensation for confirmation.

Note that if you're shooting in USPSA (or IPSC) Production Division, putting grip tape under the trigger guard will bump you to Open. See Appendix E4.

After taking a closer look at the OP's rig, this is quite likely the case. In addition to perfecting one's stance, it's also important to know the applicable rules for one's division.

[Amerflyer48]

for me it was always " take a stance like a boxer,.. then draw your gun.." weight forward on the balls of your feet slightly and feet about shoulder width apart of course as you fire what I hope to be thousands of rounds in your shooting career you will evolve into the most efficient position ever created by a shooter "The Tizzo Stance"

in regards to dagger10k's pic of J Abbate I will point out that the pistol is starting to close,.. all intents and purposes you are seeing her stance the instant after full recoil.... (see the shell casing in the optic sight reticule) as we are for your second picture...

recoil in both pics is what I would consider under control,. not knowing the course of fire I can't say that the stances are off but I will say,..

(Hypothetically) she will be gone out of the shooting box before the popper falls with a stance like that... and your stances seem very well grounded so if those were your last or only shooting boxes it looks great..with one exception on pic 1 less bend at waist and more lean in the feet/hips think like a boxer or a martial artist good balance allows for amazing moves.. bad balance and your distracted from your goal..

John

[Paul-the new guy]

Here's a nice aggressive, but relaxed stance from Jessie Abbate:

She is HOT!!!!

[Remington4Life]

More pics of Jessie Abbate would be ok

[Chris iliff]

Feet a little wider

[rfwobbly]

More pics of Jessie Abbate would be ok

I believe she was in Georgia last weekend at CGC. I was, uh, studying her, uh, stance for a long time.

[knuckles]

I normally relax my right hand as the left hand seems to do most of the securing, don't lean to forward to much and legs apart a wee bit and side by side and i don't like to lock my elbows as you lose the spring effect when the gun fires and then have a heap of fun putting holes in the target.

[Jon Merricks]

Buy the book.........

[Jon Merricks]

There is a recent video posted in USPSA Area 6 thread that shows some good stuff from some of our best shooters. Check it out.