aztecdriver Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Just a small sample discussion from this weekend - want to see what people think the right call is: Stage consists of a box A, a plate rack straight away (backwall) with 6 plates and 2 MPP underneath it, on, the right birm and left birm there are two classics each, so 4 targets in the corners. Stage Description: Upon start signal, from Box-A only, engage paper targets with 2 rounds each, perform a mandatory reload & engage steel targets. Steel or paper may be engaged first. Start is loaded and holstered. Situation: Shooter engages steel first shooting limited-10. Misses enough to leave 1 plate standing and an empty gun. Performs a mandatory reload, engages last plate, then shoots the 8 rounds at the paper targets. What's the proper call here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankfan79 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 (edited) Corrected already Edited March 15, 2011 by hankfan79 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 1 procedural for not reloading before engaging the paper after shooting the steel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 8 procedurals. 10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 If he had left that last plate standing and moved on to the paper targets after the reload, no penalty other than the Mike for the plate standing. Since he did shoot the steel (his choice), he was still engaging the first array and he should have made an additional reload before the paper. Scott is right. 8 procedurals. ============================================================ I was there and know the exact stage you are referring to. Here it is. http://georgiaipsc.c...aper-plates.jpg Another question was raised by our squad whether an additional reload would be required if the shooter went back to the first array to clean up any misses. Answer: Since the shooter had already satisfied the requirements laid out in the WSB (engage an array, perform a mandatory reload, engage the other array), there's no need to perform another reload prior to making up whatever shots were necessary because that was not specified in the WSB. Often stage designers will state something along the lines of, "A mandatory reload is required before re-engaging the first array". This stage did not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 8 procedurals. 10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed. Yep that is the right answer, I was thinking of the foot fault example.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankfan79 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 (edited) Whoa! Edited March 15, 2011 by hankfan79 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 (edited) I'm confused. I'm getting e-mails for posts before they show up in this thread. It must be nice to be a moderator Edited March 15, 2011 by sperman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 (edited) Nm Edited March 15, 2011 by spanky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 It must be nice to be a moderator It is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 the word then or after isnt in the WSB,,, He complied with the WSB, he shot the paper, he performed a reload, and he shot the steel, Nothing in that WSB says anything about when the reload must occur. WSB should read Engage the paper THEN mandatory reload THEN engage steel. Since the words THEN isnt in WSB you can do it when ever you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Stage Description: Upon start signal, from Box-A only, engage paper targets with 2 rounds each, perform a mandatory reload & engage steel targets. Steel or paper may be engaged first. Says mandatory, shooter must perform a mandatory reload before engaging the other array. He did not. Even through he did a reload he was still engaging the first array (example a revolver shooter doesn't get a pass because he has 6 rounds) Shooter in this case had to perform another reload after shooting plate down, since he didn't 8 procedurals (and then he will learn the lesson to shoot the paper first, reload and then shoot the steel...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 (edited) Yup, it was a point of concern in my squad as well (having shot the same stage as the OP and IMA45). A few of us felt that it would be several procedurals and the remainder agreed with this statement: the word then or after isnt in the WSB,,, He complied with the WSB, he shot the paper, he performed a reload, and he shot the steel, Nothing in that WSB says anything about when the reload must occur. WSB should read Engage the paper THEN mandatory reload THEN engage steel. Since the words THEN isnt in WSB you can do it when ever you want. Either way, it's a lesson learned for future stages, thanks for bringing it up. Edited March 15, 2011 by DyNo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewiston Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 8 procedurals. 10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed. Agreed. 8 Procedurals for shooting the steel prior to the mandatory reload instead of the paper targets per the stage description - assuming the missed shot was fired in the direction of the steel targets. In my opinion, it's a poorly written description due to the last sentence, which I feel is unneeded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 8 procedurals. 10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed. Yep that is the right answer, I was thinking of the foot fault example.... Thank goodness there isn't a "significant advantage" clause in 10.2.4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titandriver Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 For all the folks giving 8 procedurals, how many would you give if he engaged all eight steel targets, missing the last one, made a reload and engaged the four paper targets, then stopped shooting and unloaded & showed clear at the RO's command? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Tell me where it say THEN on this classifier http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/03-05.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 8 procedurals. 10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed. Agreed. 8 Procedurals for shooting the steel prior to the mandatory reload instead of the paper targets per the stage description - assuming the missed shot was fired in the direction of the steel targets. In my opinion, it's a poorly written description due to the last sentence, which I feel is unneeded. The procdurals aren't given for shooting the steel first (WSB said arrays can be shot in any order (paraphrase)), but rather that the 2nd array was engaged without a mandatory reload after the first array was finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titandriver Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Damn, I gotta start typin' faster! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 (edited) Tell me where it say THEN on this classifier http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/03-05.pdf It doesnt use the word THEN, but it does use the phrase, "whenever" that is a time word to specify a time, the WSB in the OP doesnt. It aslo doesnt use the word, BEFORE which you added in your previous post. Without any time or order words in the WSB, as long as sometime during the course of fire the shooter shoots all the targets and reloads he has complied. NO procedurals. A bad WSB is the problem, If you want a shooter to do a specific thing put the specific words in the WSB. Or better yet stop trying to micro manage and let shooters solve the problem. Edited March 15, 2011 by Joe4d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Tell me where it say THEN on this classifier http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/03-05.pdf It is implied in the last part where it says that a "A mandatory reload is required whenever changing arrays". The way the WSB in the OP is written it only indicates a reload is required when shooting the steel after the paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Tell me where it say THEN on this classifier http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/03-05.pdf It doesnt use the word THEN, but it does use the phrase, "whenever" that is a time word to specify a time, the WSB in the OP doesnt. It aslo doesnt use the word, BEFORE which you added in your previous post. Without any time or order words in the WSB, as long as sometime during the course of fire the shooter shoots all the targets and reloads he has complied. NO procedurals. You better hope I don't have the timer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 Seriously, in 40 minutes, there was 19 replies?! Wow, I thought this was going to be a little bit fun but sheesh. My call was 8 procedurals as well - but I wanted to throw a couple of these hypotheticals. 1. In the above described situation, had the shooter shot to empty with 1 plate standing. Reloaded, shot the plate, then reloaded again, engaged paper to the end. Are we good now, and does he meet the requirement of the course. 2. In the scenario discussed where the shooter left the steel and came back to it after the mandatory reload - I have this question - what if he didn't get to engage that plate? I'm talking 4 misses on a popper and runs dry dropping the 5th plate on the rack - has he engaged ALL of the steel. 3. Rule 10.2.3 applicability - let's say in the above situation that started this mess off - I call a Mike or even a Delta and make up the shot. I've now fired 9 rounds on paper, but 8 scoring hits are available. 10.2.3 applies for multiple penalties while faulting. IT DOES NOT make a distinction on 10.2.4, in that per shot fired after the mandatory reload. Look, it's a 0, I get it, but their might be an adaptable situation down the line that I could apply this to. Thanks all - I enjoy this discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Tell me where it say THEN on this classifier http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/03-05.pdf It doesn't. But it does say "A mandatory reload is required whenever changing arrays." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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