kevin c Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Well, it didn't happen at a match, but I think that my first DQ in a few years may be worth mentioning so others can perhaps think on the subject some. I went to our club's practice stage after running drills on another bay, and signed up to take my turn with both the established and new shooters out on this fine past Saturday morning. From the looks of it, people were mixing it up, trying a variety of different starting positions and ready conditions, the main one of which was empty gun starting on top of a barrel. After a rejuggling of the names on the shooting order due to a couple reshoots and a few folks leaving, I was suddenly up. I went up to the barrel and said to the RO as he came up after clearing the stage, "Empty gun on the barrel, right?". He gestured at the barrel and said, "Yes", at which, I unholstered my gun to put it in place. Oops.... I immediately reholstered the gun and looked at the RO. He shook his head, saying, "This is just a practice. Make ready.". From behind us, one of the other shooters jokingly called, "Say, isn't that a DQ?". I redrew my gun to show clear, reholstered and went uprange to unload my mags and stow my gear. The RO and the other shooter follwed me, the one saying again that this is just a practice, and the other saying that he was only kidding. Both statements were true, but so was the fact that I had just violated a rule designed to keep everybody on the range safe. There should be no exceptions to such rules: they apply all the time. They especially apply to an experienced shooter like me, who does not have the completely new shooter's ignorance of the rules as a possible excuse. I am also one of the club's senior members. While I am far from the best shooter at my club, I am still viewed by the new shooters as somebody they can ask questions of, because of my experience, because I am a club officer and not in the least because I am one of the instructors for our club's mandatory safety course. The rules apply to everybody, no exceptions. So, I DQ'd myself (which is always the case, is it not?). I will be submitting a report of the DQ to the Action Pistol RangeMaster. I will recuse myself from any discussion that may be necessary by the Match Committee, which oversees the range and of which I am a standing member. Too bad. It was a stage that emphasized some techniques I need to work on. But of course, that's one of the ideas of DQ's. It's to have consequences for safety violations otherwise you don't learn much from them. So that maybe others will benefit. Kevin C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Sounds familar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mscott Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 I would have probably kept shooting on a practice day, but a good point comes to mind. There are still a lot of shooters acting as ROs that don't simply say "make ready". For example: on an undloaded start he might say "O.K., lets go, put your unloaded pistol on the desk". It almost makes you look like an ass when you try to correct these guys as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 You are a very honorable man. Most people, including myself wouldn't have handled it with as much class as you did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Good example...for all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Hopefully I can have that kinda class if it ever happens to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 You're a good man Kevin and a good example for us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Rules are rules—they don't bend, just break. You handled it with great character. You have proved, probably not for the first time, that you are worthy of the respect of your fellow competitors and a proper role model for the new shooters. Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefcs5 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 I hope I would have done the same. I have seen quite a few dq's local matches and above and those that hadnle it well wich is most of them earn my upmost respect. those who dont just suck. Good job and good learning lesson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Yup! But one might try and argue - the "yep" and gesture was an "implied" make ready. This is one of the reasons why I don't horse around with commands ever. My response to someone at that stage is "Make ready - yes, empty on the barrel". ROs can help cause this - and while one might call me a range nazi - they're going to call me a holeless one as well. Great job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 This is RO failure as much as anything else. I give the MR command as quickly as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcarter Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Well done Sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gohuskers Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 I know you're not looking for a pat on the back but this is a stand-up thing to do and it also encourages other members to police themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 :cheers:Well played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonovanM Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Well done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Well, it didn't happen at a match, but I think that my first DQ in a few years may be worth mentioning so others can perhaps think on the subject some. I went to our club's practice stage after running drills on another bay, and signed up to take my turn with both the established and new shooters out on this fine past Saturday morning. From the looks of it, people were mixing it up, trying a variety of different starting positions and ready conditions, the main one of which was empty gun starting on top of a barrel. After a rejuggling of the names on the shooting order due to a couple reshoots and a few folks leaving, I was suddenly up. I went up to the barrel and said to the RO as he came up after clearing the stage, "Empty gun on the barrel, right?". He gestured at the barrel and said, "Yes", at which, I unholstered my gun to put it in place. Oops.... I immediately reholstered the gun and looked at the RO. He shook his head, saying, "This is just a practice. Make ready.". From behind us, one of the other shooters jokingly called, "Say, isn't that a DQ?". I redrew my gun to show clear, reholstered and went uprange to unload my mags and stow my gear. The RO and the other shooter follwed me, the one saying again that this is just a practice, and the other saying that he was only kidding. Both statements were true, but so was the fact that I had just violated a rule designed to keep everybody on the range safe. There should be no exceptions to such rules: they apply all the time. They especially apply to an experienced shooter like me, who does not have the completely new shooter's ignorance of the rules as a possible excuse. I am also one of the club's senior members. While I am far from the best shooter at my club, I am still viewed by the new shooters as somebody they can ask questions of, because of my experience, because I am a club officer and not in the least because I am one of the instructors for our club's mandatory safety course. The rules apply to everybody, no exceptions. So, I DQ'd myself (which is always the case, is it not?). I will be submitting a report of the DQ to the Action Pistol RangeMaster. I will recuse myself from any discussion that may be necessary by the Match Committee, which oversees the range and of which I am a standing member. Too bad. It was a stage that emphasized some techniques I need to work on. But of course, that's one of the ideas of DQ's. It's to have consequences for safety violations otherwise you don't learn much from them. So that maybe others will benefit. Kevin C I'm not surprised that you shoot at Richmond compared to the clubs here in So Cal the Hot Shots tend to run a very tight ship I think it's good that you take the rules seriously and that you approach the practice the way you would approach a match.. but at the same time i don't think you should have thrown away a practice day over such a silly incident... practice is a place where you should be some what allowed to fail and try again... we all make silly mistakes some times, and as long as we're willing to admit and correct our behavior it shouldn't be a big deal when i started practicing a Richmond and running the practice stage for the first time, the RO running the practice stage told me I had ran the stage with my finger on the trigger the hole time... i didn't go home that day, instead I ran the stage a few more times making sure my finger was not on the trigger unless i was engaging targets... seance that day i have never had an issue with running or manipulating my gun with my finger on the trigger (yet ), that practice pointed out a flaw i had, and i was allowed to fixed it that same day... the local matches down here are ran some what like practices too.. we try not to send people home, instead we want them to learn and have a good time... i had the same LAMR incident happen to me at a local match. the shooter RO'ing me i was up and said the range was clear and going hot, but he did not issue LAMR command, i made ready and shot the stage... after the stage he pointed it out my mistake, and told me he set me up in purpose, seance he had been DQ'ed from a major match in the same fashion.. i didn't go home, but you bet your butt i learned something that day, I no longer load until i confirm that it's ok to LAMR... cheers, Carlos... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Honorable people are hard to find these days and you are one. I agree that the rules are the rules even at an organized practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBoyle Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I disagree with this one. It was a practice! The range was safe and the gun was never loaded! I agree with recognizing the issue and feeling bad about it but I do not think that you should have punished yourself and cost yourself valuable live fire practice time. You caught yourself immediately and recognized it. I am sure that you will always be more attentive to it in the future to ensure that it not happen again. That is also one of the problems with organized practices. Most are there to just shoot and have fun and not necessarily perform at the level they do for matches. Some also use it to crank the dial up to 10 when theirs is usually only 5-6, adds a little bit of a pucker factor on some stages. I always find that group practices are some times too casual and easy going, but it is alwasy fun to go out shooting with your friends. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVZ Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Practice or Match does not matter. Safety applies in either case. The rule book does not only apply to matches. Knowing Kevin I'm not surprised that he DQed himself. He is a class act and adhears to the rules, practice or match. You da man Kevin! MVZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirveyr Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I am all for being safe, but I think a DQ in this instance was complete overkill. This was a practice session. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 The rule book does not only apply to matches. Granted, this might be true for some things but not a DQ. Sounds like this situation is more than "practice" the way some are talking about the activity. But DQ's apply to a paid match. Where I practice is 40 minutes away. Trust me I am not going home from a practice session until I have practiced. Don't get me wrong, if somebody is practicing with me and does not follow the rules he will sure hear about it but he won't be DQ'd. There is a Monday night league that I shoot in which is essentially an organized practice session and DQ's happen there. Again, I think there are different opinions of practice involved here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Sounds like this situation is more than "practice" the way some are talking about the activity. At Richmond Hotshots every Saturday morning is practice and it is a very active club. During the summer months our club matches typically have over 75 shooters and its not uncommon to have almost 100. We have a large number of RO's and we are broken down in squads of 6 to 8 and we work our shift every 9 weeks. Practice areas consist of a 10 yard line on one bay and a practice stage on another and there are dedicated RO's on each while the other RO's are doing range repair, clean-up, etc. On the 10 yard line shooters are allowed to simply walk up to the line and shoot, practice draws, mag changes, zero their gun, what have you. The practice stage is run like a match however we have only one RO running the shooter because watching for foot faults and scoring are not done. We adhere to the safety rules as if it were a match and if you violate a safety rule you are done shooting for the day. I was working the day of Kevin's incident however I was not running the clock at the time. This situation is a tough one, he didn't break a range safety rule (no unsafe gun handling) but did break a USPSA rule by jumping the start of the stage by not waiting for the "make ready" command. On the practice stage we are lenient in some aspects because the stage is not being scored so if a shooter wants to run it "backwards" or try an alternate starting position or shoot only part of it, it is allowed as long as they tell the RO what they are going to do so there are no surprises. I once had a shooter load up and think something was amiss with his gun so I allowed him to function fire a couple shot prior to the start. Its practice, not a match. Had I known what had happened and knowing Kevin I would have suggested he stay and shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Sounds like this situation is more than "practice" the way some are talking about the activity. At Richmond Hotshots every Saturday morning is practice and it is a very active club. During the summer months our club matches typically have over 75 shooters and its not uncommon to have almost 100. We have a large number of RO's and we are broken down in squads of 6 to 8 and we work our shift every 9 weeks. Practice areas consist of a 10 yard line on one bay and a practice stage on another and there are dedicated RO's on each while the other RO's are doing range repair, clean-up, etc. On the 10 yard line shooters are allowed to simply walk up to the line and shoot, practice draws, mag changes, zero their gun, what have you. The practice stage is run like a match however we have only one RO running the shooter because watching for foot faults and scoring are not done. We adhere to the safety rules as if it were a match and if you violate a safety rule you are done shooting for the day. I was working the day of Kevin's incident however I was not running the clock at the time. This situation is a tough one, he didn't break a range safety rule (no unsafe gun handling) but did break a USPSA rule by jumping the start of the stage by not waiting for the "make ready" command. On the practice stage we are lenient in some aspects because the stage is not being scored so if a shooter wants to run it "backwards" or try an alternate starting position or shoot only part of it, it is allowed as long as they tell the RO what they are going to do so there are no surprises. I once had a shooter load up and think something was amiss with his gun so I allowed him to function fire a couple shot prior to the start. Its practice, not a match. Had I known what had happened and knowing Kevin I would have suggested he stay and shoot. From my experience of attending many practices at your range, all I can say is that you have a great crew, a great program, and a very welcoming safe and nurturing environment for those seeking to try out the sport or simply to reach the pontential in this game.. If not for the hotshots, I probably would have never found this sport which I love so much. Much props and respect to you guys Cheers, Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 The rule book does not only apply to matches. Granted, this might be true for some things but not a DQ. Sounds like this situation is more than "practice" the way some are talking about the activity. I agree. I think we need to define terms a little bit here. My practice sessions are me and a buddy out on the farm where the only rules are the most basic safety rules (i.e. watch your muzzle and don't shoot anybody). On the other hand, many clubs have organized practices with established rules similar to a match. You can't really compare the two. I salute the shooter for his character and logic, but without knowing more about the club or the structure of the practice, I can't say whether I'd do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calishootr Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 my hat is off to you Kevin, for being a stand-up guy, this sport needs more people like yourself in it, some or most ofthe people new entering this sport dont realize that integrity is a major part ofthis sport as well as the competition... I cant remember the actual phrase word for word, but itgoes somthing like this...character is how you handle yourself when the camera's are off and no one is around... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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