2011 USPSA MultiGun Nationals

[gose]

[...] I also "heard" that the Tactical match winner was DQ'd for the same thing then reinstated after further review. I also heard about a DQ for taking off a CR Speed/Safariland belt rig and setting it in the back of the truck/car with the pistol still sitting in the holster. [...]

I was on the stage when Daniel (if you're going to say Tactical Match Winner you might as well use his name because we can all figure it out) burned the SG round. He had the gun off the shoulder and gun sideways when he fired. RO stopped him. Daniel said to the CRO, and he told me a few minutes later, that he knew he had a round left, saw there was a partial clay left and burned the round at it to make sure. RO didn't know what he was seeing and stopped him. Upon later review, it really wasn't a DQ (he was never DQ'd, just stopped). [...]

Thanks Chuck, for an accurate account. When the RO described what he witnessed to the CRO (in some detail) it became apparent to the CRO that no DQ'able offense had actually occured ... per the rules. Hence, the shooter was never actually DQ'd and was thus granted a reshoot as the RO had stopped him.

I guess as the rules stand today, shooting a shotgun sideways with the stock off the shoulder is perfectly legal and can't be seen as an AD as long as its done in a safe direction and youre not moving, right? I can't find anywhere in the rules that you actually have to shoot at targets. Or you can shoot from the hip with your eyes closed, if you want, as long as its done in a safe direction.

So it seems it probably wasnt an AD as the rules are written...

However, if youre moving you actually have to shoot at a target, since thats explicitly mentioned under 10.4.6, or it would be an AD (but I dont think he was moving, right?)

Unsafe gun handling... maybe, there's a little more flexibility here but

"Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:" and its definitely not listed, so it would then have to fall under "not limited to", but if he wasnt moving, it would be hard to even call it unsafe gun handling since the round went in a safe direction...

My personal opinion is that it sounds like an AD, by most definitions of an AD, but it doesnt fall under the definition of an AD in the USPSA rulebook.

Had it been a match run under the SMM3G/IMGA rules I would have called it a DQ based on 2.5.4, but it wasnt and under the current USPSA rules I have a harder time seeing a DQ stick.

Sounds like our squad had way fewer re-shoots than most other squads... I even tried to get one when a target I only shot at twice had four .40 holes in it, guess I need to shoot in another squad at the next match

Edited October 26, 2011 by gose

[Chills1994]

Larry Weeks wrote:

.....we didn't anticipate the problem with the cable loop at the popper...... I think Carl cleaned out all the 2x2s at Home Depot, two days in a row. It took over 600 big nails just for the fault lines! We pre-drilled most of the holes that hard bleeping ground using masonary bits for the even-bigger spikes that held the walls, target stands, braces, etc....

as far as cable loops and poppers go, may I suggest those little metal carabiners, kinda like what you would use to hand your car/house keys from. my other suggestion is when possible weld a threaded rod connecter....they are like long hex nuts. then thread and eyebolt into the threaded rod connector which is welded to the tab on the Max trap or clamshell. They eyebolts give you up to two inches of travel. depending on the popper design you can also use an eyebolt through the lower face of the popper plate.

as far as fault lines go...sorry...I hope it doesn't seem like I am Monday morning quarterbacking you guys....

I really like that braided yellow poly rope for establishing boundaries/fault lines. you can use rebar "t's" or "cross pickets" or even that T-fencing stuff to string the rope from. hang it up about belly button to rib height.

If you are stuck on using fault lines made up out of two by two's and spikes...I haven't tried it myself...but I have seen where electricians use an SDS style hammer/rotary drill to drive in 10 foot long sections of ground rod. they just switch it to hammer mode, slip the chuck over the ground rod, and hit the trigger, looks like it would work slick as snot. granted you can't drag a cord all over the place, but a cordless one with plenty of batteries all charged up would work.

[Charles Bond]

22 DQ's out of 188 competitors is an 11.7% DQ rate. That would be like having 92 DQ's at Handgun Nationals which had 787 Competitors. Will be interesting to hear comments from attendees as to what the problem seemed to be.

That is an very soft comment. I was not there but that rate of DQ is over twice what it should be.

OK Charles ... What SHOULD the DQ rate be?

Sorry old friend, but the rate is what it is. In this case, a significant portion (though clearly not all of it) can be attributed to folks whith little or no experience in USPSA shooting and the safety rules therein. If one is going to play the game at the national championship level ... ANY game ... then they should take the time and trouble to familiarize themselves with the rules specific to THAT game. As has been clearly noted, USPSA matches are NOT 3 Gun Nation (or other) matches.

IMO if the DQ rate exceeds 5% there is something wrong.

A DQ is always the fault of the shooter and we always have to make the shooter responsible for safety but there is more at stake here. USPSA wants to become a leader in the MG format. If we assume that all those DQed were newer members, that does nothing to raise our status in the MG community. Note these are not inexperienced shooters. But the lesson here, which has been repeated at many previous nationals is that MG is a different animal and we can not just succeed by ignoring past lessons and imposing a slightly modified version of our handgun rules.

It is not a secret that our nationals is not well regarded in the MG community and our MG scoring and rules are often criticized as well. Now (if indeed most of those who DQed were new to USPSA matches) we get some of the independent MG shooters to join and get them to attend our nationals. They come and either they or their shooting buddy get DQed and our chance to alter their perception of USPSA MG shooting is forever lost.

Every one of the individuals who are on the present USPSA MG Committee are capable serving as the MD of this match but that has not happened. Until it does, I am afraid that USPSA will continue to have the same problems year after year. In the spirit of never getting a second chance to make a first impression, we are going to exhaust potential MG shooters who have not had a sour experience with our MG Nationals.

[Religious Shooter]

USPSA RO's will DQ a shooter in a heartbeat. The two DQ's in my squad, they would have probably gotten a "MUZZLE!!!" in an IMGA match. If they didn't correct they would be gone. But if they had immediately corrected they would have been allowed to go on.

I think the DQ rate, given the USPSA RO's, may be a bit high because of the dump and pick up points were a little too close. But that's still absolutely the shooter's fault.

You can't compare it straight to pistol matches because we ground weapons in MG (something you don't normally do in a pistol only match) and we use long guns that are harder to control than a pistol.

I'll wager the majority of the DQ's happened on a weapon transition. 5% is too low of an expectation.

[Doug H.]

It is not a secret that our nationals is not well regarded in the MG community and our MG scoring and rules are often criticized as well. Now (if indeed most of those who DQed were new to USPSA matches) we get some of the independent MG shooters to join and get them to attend our nationals. They come and either they or their shooting buddy get DQed and our chance to alter their perception of USPSA MG shooting is forever lost.

Every one of the individuals who are on the present USPSA MG Committee are capable serving as the MD of this match but that has not happened. Until it does, I am afraid that USPSA will continue to have the same problems year after year. In the spirit of never getting a second chance to make a first impression, we are going to exhaust potential MG shooters who have not had a sour experience with our MG Nationals.

I checked the scores and I didn't see your name on the list, so I guess you weren't there and that doesn't leave you a lot of room to badmouth the match. I've been to almost every big 3 gun match west of the Mississippi, some several times, and this was as good or better than any of those matches. No match is perfect and I'm just glad there are people willing to do the work so I can go out and have a good time.

As for the MD at the MG Nats, MV was the co-MD with Carl Schmidt, who did the duties during the match while Voigt was shooting. Strader was MD at the MG Nats in Tulsa and Anderson was just MD at the Area 1 MG match so I'm not sure what your point is.

All the people listed on the Multigun Rules committee know more than enough about 3 gun and outlaw matches to understand the changes that need to be made. We need to give them a chance to do the work that needs to be done so that USPSA Multigun can continue to grow.

FREE OPEN NOW!

Doug

Edited October 26, 2011 by Doug H.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Kalani Laker shooting...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG2_vLSxWCI

[TMC]

Two things I saw wrong with the barrels was the over use of carpet lining them, and where they were place on the stage. They were standard 35 gallon Rubbermaid, but I could see the possible problem of the front sight or something else on the gun getting caught on the carpet, and if the shooter wasn't being careful the worse could easily happen. .jj

Amens to that, I almost when home becuase my choke caught the carpet. Checkout the video and how high in the barrel my shotgun is. When we came back it tangled up in the carpet that come loose.

[RiggerJJ]

Two things I saw wrong with the barrels was the over use of carpet lining them, and where they were place on the stage. They were standard 35 gallon Rubbermaid, but I could see the possible problem of the front sight or something else on the gun getting caught on the carpet, and if the shooter wasn't being careful the worse could easily happen. .jj

Amens to that, I almost when home becuase my choke caught the carpet. Checkout the video and how high in the barrel my shotgun is. When we came back it tangled up in the carpet that come loose.

Exactly! Glad to see you made it thru that "unscathed".

The 35 gallon trash cans are fine, we use them for all long guns, so they are deep enough IF the gun is allowed to go all the way to the bottom.

Using carpet kinda worries me because, how many times has carpet melted to a hot barrel??? Not to mention that the carpet causes DQs...

Seems like I have talked about dump barrels a million times, espcially here, seems that someone on the MG staff/comittee would have seen that carpet in a dump barrel is bad...at least they saw to use the Rubbermaid barrels and put them vertical...

I did like the long gun pickup barrel design thou, but they needed to be pointed straight downrange. And the pistol dump boxes worked as well, but again, NO CARPET!

jj

Edited October 26, 2011 by RiggerJJ

[Nuke8401]

I'm kind of new to 3 gun. I have been competing/SOing/MD IDPA matches over the past 7 years. If I designed stages, trained SOs(ROs), MDed a match with a 10% DQ rate I would be taking a real hard look to figure out what I had done wrong and make sure it didn't happen again.

I shot an outlaw 3 gun match last weekend with just over 100 shooters, 1 DQ. Many, many inexperienced shooters.

The DQ numbers alone on this match would/will prevent me from attending in the future, they are unacceptable to me. And if the DQ numbers didn't deter me than the responses in this thread that "everything was just fine" would seal the deal. No thanks, worked with too many who are not open to input/improvement. I wouldn't think about paying to be exposed to it, the shooters are the customers.

David E.

[orangeman711]

I've shot previous nationals,Superstition,Area's,and SOF. This was a very challanging and fun match.We had two DQ's on our squad,one I didn't agree with,and the other I didn't see.The tricky props are really neat,(when they work),otherwise a big PITA. We sat at one stage for two hrs. while they tried to get the props working.The RO's and Mr. Fixit worked their butts off to make it work consistantly and finally got it going.This may not have been a problem if as stated previously the RO's had been able to shoot the match. My hat's off to the RO's and Staff,sponsors,and shooters for a great time.Don't forget to call or send a thank you E-Mail to the sponsors of what you got off the prize table and welcome bag.

[larry weeks]

Chills, good points. We had a carabiner on the other popper, no problems. Probably would have helped on #1, we didn't realize there would be a problem with careless resetting until it happened, during the match. Both used eye bolts on the lower portion. On the fault lines, several of us talked about rope and "t"s. They're harder to feel and a shooter can fudge them if the RO isn't looking at his feet. I look at the gun when I have the timer, the person on the clipboard is your backup for foot faults, etc. We were also trying to score a bit as we went to keep the time down, which would have allowed the shooter to foot fault. As far as the power nailer, Jim Meade and I talked about renting one and a generator but both forgot to check anywhere after a long day of construction. We ate batteries when pre-drilling for the big spikes on the walls. 3 DeWalts, 2 Makitas in one day. Changing to a nail that was 6 or 7" long and 1/4" dia made the fault line nailing go a whole lot better. Mike and Dennis did the lion's share of that job.

On the whole tough ROs and DQs, this is the Nationals after all and you should know what you're doing if you're going to shoot this match. The Pro Am at Rockcastle Presented by... oh, never mind... was designed for new shooters (the AM part at least) and the ROs really did walk the shooters through, coaching where needed. Pete Brownell would like to see that concept expand to more matches. And to whoever it was that suggested new shooters were DQ'd, Clint Upchurch sure isn't a newbee. Nor was the fella on our stage. Sometimes even the good guys make mistakes. The ROs I know don't want to send anyone home. A DQ gets my heart pumping and my mind on stomach churning. I hate it, I feel so badly for the shooter who took the time and spent the money to get there but rules are there for a reason - safety.

Mike and the committee are working on a consolidated rule book. For those who say the USPSA rule book is too big, others are simpler, that's true. But the others can be simpler because USPSA has already written the big one. Everybody falls back to that big, complicated book - or at least what they think they remember from it - when they have a problem.

I'd ask everyone who loves Multi-Gun to take the RO classes, get involved and help set up and RO a match, if you haven't. Roughly 12 of us built this one plus Pete and Carl supervising, Charlie Brown chasing things down, chipping in when he didn't have to do his day job. More help would have been appreciated. Everybody looked for 180 traps, tried shooting positions to see if someone my height and a normal 5-8 to 5-10 person could shoot under, over barricades. A stepladder and I became a 7 footer at times. I had a 2x2 rifle/shotgun, loaned it out to other buiders with no worry about it getting dinged up, generous and selfless aint I? We really did try to make sure things couldn't go wrong. All of us are shooters but we couldn't forsee every problem. Pete R had the wall and target placements painted on the ground for us, and we changed surprisingly little. He was the heart of the thing and can see a wall that isn't there and shoot a target that isn't either. Great ability to visualize.

As Linda said, go ahead complain, USPSA will listen. I say, come help us make these matches better. I shoot three to five events a year and try to work at least one. Gives me a whole different view of our sport. I know many already do, and thanks.

High horse parked, soap box broken down for firewood. Love the Enos forum, it doesn't devolve into name calling.

[Larry LeBeau]

Chills, good points. We had a carabiner on the other popper, no problems. Probably would have helped on #1, we didn't realize there would be a problem with careless resetting until it happened, during the match. Both used eye bolts on the lower portion. On the fault lines, several of us talked about rope and "t"s. They're harder to feel and a shooter can fudge them if the RO isn't looking at his feet. I look at the gun when I have the timer, the person on the clipboard is your backup for foot faults, etc. We were also trying to score a bit as we went to keep the time down, which would have allowed the shooter to foot fault. As far as the power nailer, Jim Meade and I talked about renting one and a generator but both forgot to check anywhere after a long day of construction. We ate batteries when pre-drilling for the big spikes on the walls. 3 DeWalts, 2 Makitas in one day. Changing to a nail that was 6 or 7" long and 1/4" dia made the fault line nailing go a whole lot better. Mike and Dennis did the lion's share of that job.

On the whole tough ROs and DQs, this is the Nationals after all and you should know what you're doing if you're going to shoot this match. The Pro Am at Rockcastle Presented by... oh, never mind... was designed for new shooters (the AM part at least) and the ROs really did walk the shooters through, coaching where needed. Pete Brownell would like to see that concept expand to more matches. And to whoever it was that suggested new shooters were DQ'd, Clint Upchurch sure isn't a newbee. Nor was the fella on our stage. Sometimes even the good guys make mistakes. The ROs I know don't want to send anyone home. A DQ gets my heart pumping and my mind on stomach churning. I hate it, I feel so badly for the shooter who took the time and spent the money to get there but rules are there for a reason - safety.

Mike and the committee are working on a consolidated rule book. For those who say the USPSA rule book is too big, others are simpler, that's true. But the others can be simpler because USPSA has already written the big one. Everybody falls back to that big, complicated book - or at least what they think they remember from it - when they have a problem.

I'd ask everyone who loves Multi-Gun to take the RO classes, get involved and help set up and RO a match, if you haven't. Roughly 12 of us built this one plus Pete and Carl supervising, Charlie Brown chasing things down, chipping in when he didn't have to do his day job. More help would have been appreciated. Everybody looked for 180 traps, tried shooting positions to see if someone my height and a normal 5-8 to 5-10 person could shoot under, over barricades. A stepladder and I became a 7 footer at times. I had a 2x2 rifle/shotgun, loaned it out to other buiders with no worry about it getting dinged up, generous and selfless aint I? We really did try to make sure things couldn't go wrong. All of us are shooters but we couldn't forsee every problem. Pete R had the wall and target placements painted on the ground for us, and we changed surprisingly little. He was the heart of the thing and can see a wall that isn't there and shoot a target that isn't either. Great ability to visualize.

As Linda said, go ahead complain, USPSA will listen. I say, come help us make these matches better. I shoot three to five events a year and try to work at least one. Gives me a whole different view of our sport. I know many already do, and thanks.

High horse parked, soap box broken down for firewood. Love the Enos forum, it doesn't devolve into name calling.

Very well said OL MAN. Larry

[Jack T]

It is not a secret that our nationals is not well regarded in the MG community and our MG scoring and rules are often criticized as well. Now (if indeed most of those who DQed were new to USPSA matches) we get some of the independent MG shooters to join and get them to attend our nationals. They come and either they or their shooting buddy get DQed and our chance to alter their perception of USPSA MG shooting is forever lost.

Every one of the individuals who are on the present USPSA MG Committee are capable serving as the MD of this match but that has not happened. Until it does, I am afraid that USPSA will continue to have the same problems year after year. In the spirit of never getting a second chance to make a first impression, we are going to exhaust potential MG shooters who have not had a sour experience with our MG Nationals.

I checked the scores and I didn't see your name on the list, so I guess you weren't there and that doesn't leave you a lot of room to badmouth the match. I've been to almost every big 3 gun match west of the Mississippi, some several times, and this was as good or better than any of those matches. No match is perfect and I'm just glad there are people willing to do the work so I can go out and have a good time.

As for the MD at the MG Nats, MV was the co-MD with Carl Schmidt, who did the duties during the match while Voigt was shooting. Strader was MD at the MG Nats in Tulsa and Anderson was just MD at the Area 1 MG match so I'm not sure what your point is.

All the people listed on the Multigun Rules committee know more than enough about 3 gun and outlaw matches to understand the changes that need to be made. We need to give them a chance to do the work that needs to be done so that USPSA Multigun can continue to grow.

FREE OPEN NOW!

Doug

Doug,

Never thought I would see the day I would be defending a lawyer, but what the hell!! Charles is one of the good guys, he was the Area 6 Director for many years and responsible along with Cindy and Bill Noyes for putting on some of the best Area 6 Multi-gun events ever held (The guys in Aniston also!!)

He has an excellent grasp of how the BOD works and it's shortcomings.

On another note, I am all healed up feeling great and ready to win that $100.00 back!!!!!!!!

Jack

Edited October 26, 2011 by Jack T

[Doug H.]

It is not a secret that our nationals is not well regarded in the MG community and our MG scoring and rules are often criticized as well. Now (if indeed most of those who DQed were new to USPSA matches) we get some of the independent MG shooters to join and get them to attend our nationals. They come and either they or their shooting buddy get DQed and our chance to alter their perception of USPSA MG shooting is forever lost.

Every one of the individuals who are on the present USPSA MG Committee are capable serving as the MD of this match but that has not happened. Until it does, I am afraid that USPSA will continue to have the same problems year after year. In the spirit of never getting a second chance to make a first impression, we are going to exhaust potential MG shooters who have not had a sour experience with our MG Nationals.

I checked the scores and I didn't see your name on the list, so I guess you weren't there and that doesn't leave you a lot of room to badmouth the match. I've been to almost every big 3 gun match west of the Mississippi, some several times, and this was as good or better than any of those matches. No match is perfect and I'm just glad there are people willing to do the work so I can go out and have a good time.

As for the MD at the MG Nats, MV was the co-MD with Carl Schmidt, who did the duties during the match while Voigt was shooting. Strader was MD at the MG Nats in Tulsa and Anderson was just MD at the Area 1 MG match so I'm not sure what your point is.

All the people listed on the Multigun Rules committee know more than enough about 3 gun and outlaw matches to understand the changes that need to be made. We need to give them a chance to do the work that needs to be done so that USPSA Multigun can continue to grow.

FREE OPEN NOW!

Doug

Doug,

Never thought I would see the day I would be defending a lawyer, but what the hell!! Charles is one of the good guys, he was the Area 6 Director for many years and responsible along with Cindy and Bill Noyes for putting on some of the best Area 6 Multi-gun events ever held (The guys in Aniston also!!)

He has an excellent grasp of how the BOD works and it's shortcomings.

On another note, I am all healed up feeling great and ready to win that $100.00 back!!!!!!!!

Jack

Jack,

Thanks for the info, some of which I didn't know. As for the $100 bill, I still have it in my wallet and it's ready to rumble! Perhaps we can tangle at Rocky Mountain or Ironman.

Doug

[smokshwn]

I'm kind of new to 3 gun. I have been competing/SOing/MD IDPA matches over the past 7 years. If I designed stages, trained SOs(ROs), MDed a match with a 10% DQ rate I would be taking a real hard look to figure out what I had done wrong and make sure it didn't happen again.

I shot an outlaw 3 gun match last weekend with just over 100 shooters, 1 DQ. Many, many inexperienced shooters.

The DQ numbers alone on this match would/will prevent me from attending in the future, they are unacceptable to me. And if the DQ numbers didn't deter me than the responses in this thread that "everything was just fine" would seal the deal. No thanks, worked with too many who are not open to input/improvement. I wouldn't think about paying to be exposed to it, the shooters are the customers.

David E.

I would be taking a real hard look at judging a match having absolutely no firsthand knowledge of any of it's parameters. You mention closed mindedness, yet are unwilling to entertain those individuals in this thread who are well seasoned 3 gunners who have given an opinion that there are many more factors to the # of DQ's than just stage design.

Your statement concerning those who are not open to input/improvement is particularly out of line. It is particularly the crew that put this match and the previous two nationals together who have consistently sought feedback/input from the shooters and then implemented that input in a successful effort to significantly improve USPSA Multigun.

It seems this is a common theme where many of the participants in a thread calling for the heads of the MD, RO's, and Match Staff have little to no exposure to the match in question or the discipline involved yet at the same time feel fully qualified to determine acceptable DQ rates etc etc. All the while, have neither the experience nor the participation to back up their opinions. IMO it is a much more accurate path to let the actual participants at the match determine the tone of the discussion with respect to improvements/changes that need to be made.

FWIW I would consider myself a very experienced multigun competitor with above average exposure to major multigun matches and I would not hesitate to shoot this match all over again or attend it in the future.

Edited October 26, 2011 by smokshwn

[Nuke8401]

I will stand by my opinion; it is based on my perception of this match based on DQs and the comments in this thread from those who I have come to value their opinion on a web forum, which is very few.

So if I, or another new 3 gunner for that matter, is looking for a major match to attend I will compare all available information including: cost, travel distance, the rules/scoring system used and the matches reputation (feedback rating), which like it or not comes from forums like this one, to make my selections for the year.

The intent of my post was to let the organizers know how an outsider/newcomer like me would perceive this match based on what I know, which does not include firsthand experience. Before I spend time and money to get that first hand experience I will do the research and weigh all my choices. Comparing this match to others on the 2011 or 2012 schedule and the comments about all of these matches, both good and bad, is what I have to go on.

Sorry, I dont buy into the you had to be there to comment or have an opinion.

I may not have firsthand knowledge or your extensive 3-gun experience but I do have a few years of shooting and running matches and enough life experience to make an educated assessment of this match from the information provided.

Its the USPSA Multigun Nationals right, the match of all matches right?

Or Im completely wrong; in either case this new 3 gun shooter will place this match low on my priority list.

So who is affected by this? In either case the USPSA is missing out on attracting a new shooter to the nationals.

I do not mean to offend anyone personally with my comments.

I'm done done on this thread, no good can come from further comments from me.

David E.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Nuke8401

[ap3]

Two things I saw wrong with the barrels was the over use of carpet lining them, and where they were place on the stage. They were standard 35 gallon Rubbermaid, but I could see the possible problem of the front sight or something else on the gun getting caught on the carpet, and if the shooter wasn't being careful the worse could easily happen. .jj

Amens to that, I almost when home becuase my choke caught the carpet. Checkout the video and how high in the barrel my shotgun is. When we came back it tangled up in the carpet that come loose.

Wow, that shotgun is almost half way out of the barrel when grounded

[RiggerJJ]

Mike and the committee are working on a consolidated rule book. For those who say the USPSA rule book is too big, others are simpler, that's true. But the others can be simpler because USPSA has already written the big one. Everybody falls back to that big, complicated book - or at least what they think they remember from it - when they have a problem.

Larry,

I snipped a lot, but got a couple comments about ^^^ this part;

Using the rules books used in USPSA Multigun are problematic, and we know that. We have to go with each gun's book, the Tournament book, and the Multigun Addendum (5 rule books). We have been doing this for seveal years (since at least '04???). WHY?

I have been hearing for at least the past 5 years that a new consolidated simpler rule book is comming. WHEN?

I realize that you, Larry Weeks, has no more a clue when this "new" rule book will come out than I do. Just thought I would jump in the fray WITH you and ask, WHEN????

...IMHO its way past time for it to come to be.

Your comment about the "others" using simpler rule sets and the hint that they fall back on USPSA's rules (when convienent) is way off thou. I hear something to that effect from a few USPSA'ers (ROs, ADs, etc) at the Nationals and elsewhere quite often, and I am here to say as a MD from one of the "others" that we don't refer to the insinuated "Mother Ship of USPSA" or "The Big One" rule set AT ALL, EVER. We have our own rule set and use IT and only IT to make decisions, rule calls, and to guide our ROs. You have been there, and know our match is a totally different animal. don't get pulled into this assumption because its wrong...

See you soon, and THANKS again for your efforts in Vegas so we could play!!

jj

Oh yea, eta; FREE OPEN NOW!!!

Edited October 27, 2011 by RiggerJJ

[Jesse Tischauser]

The safety rules are all relatively the same JJ.

Since this has turned into a bitch fest I figure I'll dive in and say I'd much rather shoot anywhere but in Vegas. It's WAY expensive and I was so tired I couldn't even enjoy any of the temptations the city has to offer after the match.

Oh and the prize table arrangement was not so good. I picked up a certificate for a Stag 15 rifle. That's all it said which doesn't say anything. No model number to tell what type of Stag 15 rifle. Same goes for the DPMS certificates.

Then I call the FFL yesterday to get the rifle shipped and I have to pay a $25 transfer fee and $19.95 for shipping? Sorry but that is unacceptable!

Edited October 27, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser

[Flexmoney]

Then I call the FFL yesterday to get the rifle shipped and I have to pay a $25 transfer fee and $19.95 for shipping? Sorry but that is unacceptable!

I'll take it.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Then I call the FFL yesterday to get the rifle shipped and I have to pay a $25 transfer fee and $19.95 for shipping? Sorry but that is unacceptable!

I'll take it.

It is for sale. Model 3G just like the gun that won the gun. I know that cost is about par for a transfer and shipping but for some reason I didn't have to pay either fee on the other 5 or so rifles I won at the Outlaw matches this year.

[BrianATL]

The safety rules are all relatively the same JJ.

Since this has turned into a bitch fest I figure I'll dive in and say I'd much rather shoot anywhere but in Vegas. It's WAY expensive and I was so tired I couldn't even enjoy any of the temptations the city has to offer after the match.

Oh and the prize table arrangement was not so good. I picked up a certificate for a Stag 15 rifle. That's all it said which doesn't say anything. No model number to tell what type of Stag 15 rifle. Same goes for the DPMS certificates.

Then I call the FFL yesterday to get the rifle shipped and I have to pay a $25 transfer fee and $19.95 for shipping? Sorry but that is unacceptable!

Considering your statement in post #161 it doesn't seem like that bad of a deal.

[RiggerJJ]

Jesse,

The chicken or the egg???

I think SOF was doing 3gun (multigun) long before USPSA multigun.

USPSA (or some early form of it) probably started doing "action pistol" before that.

range commands, BSRs, etc probably were developed mostly by USPSA (or some early form of it).

I have no clue, and don't really care "where it all began".

But! USPSA is mostly STILL using their basic PISTOL rule set for the core of USPSA multigun. IMGA and other outlaw matches are free to choose what they want from whatever rule set they want AND add whatever they want. So I suppose some of the generic stuff in the IMGA rule set (and most outlaw matches) has come from the USPSA PISTOL rule set. SO???

What I was trying to say was, its long past time for USPSA to get a new rule set for multigun.

AND I was also saying that when a rule call comes up at our match, I use OUR rules to guide me, not USPSAs. But it seems I am reminded/bantered quite often (by the afore mentioned) that I use USPSA rules to make calls. I do not.

example; I used our rule addressing "spirt of the rules" to make a call for your shooting buddy to get a reshoot at RM3G. Try to find that in other rule sets...you probably won't. I "borrowed" it from competitive skydiving rules...(see section 3d under "sportsmanship and conduct" in our rule set)

(I didn't think I was adding to a "bitch fest" either... )

jj

FREE OPEN NOW!

[Flexmoney]

Then I call the FFL yesterday to get the rifle shipped and I have to pay a $25 transfer fee and $19.95 for shipping? Sorry but that is unacceptable!

I'll take it.

It is for sale. Model 3G just like the gun that won the gun. I know that cost is about par for a transfer and shipping but for some reason I didn't have to pay either fee on the other 5 or so rifles I won at the Outlaw matches this year.

Send me an address to send the $45!!!

[1chota]

well, i will durn sure jump in. USPSA just don't get it with 3 gun shooting. period. this has been cussed and discussed for several years and USPSA hasn't changed a whit. i don't shoot USPSA multi gun matches any more. there exists more than one reason.

i don't know where this term "outlaw" came from as SOF and RM3g durn sure got there first. mebbe so USPSA will get off its duff and change, but i doubt it.

remember to vote!