15 round magazines in Production

[G-ManBart]

FWIW, I wouldn't quit USPSA, but I would probably quit Production. One of the things I like about Production is the necessity of doing mag changes and planning out a stage. With an increase in capacity, mag changes become less critical...I might as well sell my Production gun and just shoot Singlestack or L10 or just go with full mags in Limited.

I'm with you on that one....I probably wouldn't shoot any Production if they made the change, but I would shoot SS and Limited. R,

[badchad]

Bart, I’m going to reply to you because you seem to be summing up the opposition fairly well, and I just don’t have time to respond to everyone else.

What the people at Nationals used really doesn't matter. What matters is that there are a lot of perfectly suitable Production guns that would be hindered by an increase to 15-rounds. The appeal, to many, is not having to buy a new gun and/or mags. Change the current rule, and lots of folks are going to think they need to buy a new gun.

I disagree. Nationals shows what guns are truly competitive platforms in any division. Lower level matches are not able to do this nearly as well. Do you disagree? Also the guns you call “perfectly suitable” for production that would be hindered, by and large are only marginally suitable for competition purposes. Correct? Rules wise, the guns that are marginally suitable competition wise would still be perfectly suitable by the rules (like a Glock 23) because a 13 round magazine can still be used and if the person wanted to they could just put a Glock 22 mag in their G23 and be loaded to full capacity.

What Open and Limited shooters do has absolutely no bearing on what a Production shooter does/should be able to do. Essentially, you're saying "make Production more like Limited/Open, so I can shoot stages the way those guys do". The only thing that matters is how you do it, in relation to the other Production shooters. Maybe you'd like to add a scope and compensator while you're at it...hey, that will let you shoot on the move, at longer distances, just like the Open shooters, right? Changes to make Production more similar to another division, are a bad idea.

IMO it would be more fun and let me utilize more of my skill set by being able to shoot stages a little more like the Limited/Open shooters, in particular with greater opportunity to engage targets on the move. I just want to fill my mag a bit more and let my gun perform a little closer to what it was designed to do, which has nothing to do with adding a scope or compensator. I don’t at all follow your line of argument that changes to make Production more similar to another division is a bad idea, as doing so would making them considerably less similar to L10 and SS minor.

Any time a rule change is suggested, the critical factors (my opinion) are 1) how many new shooters will this change bring in. 2) how will it harm, discourage, or drive away current shooters? Your change won't bring any new folks, and it might drive off some current members....that equals a bad idea.

You are falsely assuming with certainty the rule change will not bring in any more shooters, and your guessing that it might drive some off. I challenge both assumptions and you can follow my reasoning which is supported by some evidence.

First if you look at the results of our last USPSA Nationals you will see the popularity of Production trails Open and Limited, by a wide margin. However if you look at the last IPSC European Championships (where they load 15) Production is (by far) the most popular class.

On a local level you can look at the results of the last, and every, Tuesday Night Steel, which I believe you have shot, and you will see that novice shooters by far and away enter in Limited division over Production in spite of the fact that most novices do not show up with wide body single action .40s. Most of them are starting with guns perfectly suitable for Production but for whatever reason want to shoot Limited anyway.

Why in the world would increasing from 10 to 15 invite more folks than the current rules? That makes no sense at all. If you have a gun that holds 15, you can download it to 10 and be set. If you have a gun that hold 13, and everybody else has 15, you're at a disadvantage. So, more prospective shooters would be at a disadvantage after a change to 15 round limits....that's going to turn at least a few away that the current rules invite with open arms.

My guess is that beginners don’t want to change magazines that often, or don't have that many mags, or maybe want to minimize the risk of feeling stupid in front of a crowd taking standing reloads in front of a Texas star. Maybe they just want to finish higher in the overall than their buddy they came with who has a revolver. Good, bad, or whatever reason, the fact is I see guys preferring to load to only 13 or 15, or 17 and shoot Limited than download to 10 and shoot Production.

I'm with you on that one....I probably wouldn't shoot any Production if they made the change, but I would shoot SS and Limited. R,

Really? You wouldn’t shoot 15 rounds, but you would shoot divisions with more & less? Why?

[vluc]

You can shoot just as effectively on the move with a 10 round mag as with a 15 round mag.

[Jim Norman]

If you want to shoot Limited, just go ahead and do it. Don't lobby to make Production into Limited-Lite. You want to load to full capacity, go ahead, no one is stopping you, in fact, get some mag extensions and you can likely get 24 -25 rounds. you'll have an advantage over many Limited Shooters shooting major.

For the record, we have a strong contingent of Productions shooters here and not one has bitched about 10 rounds.

As for IPSC, in many places you are severely limited in what you can buy and how many and what calibers you can shoot. Also the costs of some products are far different than what we pay. Whereas here we may have a gun or to for every division, that may not hold true elsewhere. We can reload, some places don't allow it, so purchasing factory ammo might have something to do with Production's popularity.

Besides, this is not about IPSC, but about USPSA. IPSC just moved closer to USPSA by reducing their capacity. Right now we have 6 divisions. You can shoot just about any gun you want and be competitive with it. Why would you want to take 2 of the four Production guns I shoot and toss them on the scrap heap? My Sig and my XD would no longer have a home. I would be relegated to m G22 or G17. Or I could shoot at a disability. Sort of like shooting a Single Stack in Limited or Open.

Jim

[d_striker]

While I understand the negative effects changing to 15 would have, I'm not buying some of your arguments. On the matter as a whole, which I've already stated in the thread, keep it at 10 but I wouldn't be interested in the division unless it was 15.

If you want to shoot Limited, just go ahead and do it. Don't lobby to make Production into Limited-Lite. You want to load to full capacity, go ahead, no one is stopping you, in fact, get some mag extensions and you can likely get 24 -25 rounds. you'll have an advantage over many Limited Shooters shooting major.

People keep saying this even though this so called "advantage" is not an advantage in my book. I'll take my 21+1 rounds of .40 over 24+1 rounds of 9mm any day of the week. I would also put my money on the competitor shooting major every time, assuming competitors are in the same class. I would even put it on a B shooter under Major rather than an A shooter shooting Minor.

Besides, this is not about IPSC, but about USPSA. IPSC just moved closer to USPSA by reducing their capacity. Right now we have 6 divisions. You can shoot just about any gun you want and be competitive with it. Why would you want to take 2 of the four Production guns I shoot and toss them on the scrap heap? My Sig and my XD would no longer have a home. I would be relegated to m G22 or G17. Or I could shoot at a disability. Sort of like shooting a Single Stack in Limited or Open.

Jim

Sure they would...You're XD would have a home in Limited 10. If you have a P226 it would also have a home in L10 and a P220 would have a home in single stack. If you are in fact referring to a P220, you're already using a gun that's disadvantaged in Production. Any gun that would become "obsolete" in Production would have a home in L10.

Just sayin'.

Edited October 31, 2010 by d_striker

[GrumpyOne]

While I understand the negative effects changing to 15 would have, I'm not buying some of your arguments. On the matter as a whole, which I've already stated in the thread, keep it at 10 but I wouldn't be interested in the division unless it was 15.

If you want to shoot Limited, just go ahead and do it. Don't lobby to make Production into Limited-Lite. You want to load to full capacity, go ahead, no one is stopping you, in fact, get some mag extensions and you can likely get 24 -25 rounds. you'll have an advantage over many Limited Shooters shooting major.

People keep saying this even though this so called "advantage" is not an advantage in my book. I'll take my 21+1 rounds of .40 over 24+1 rounds of 9mm any day of the week. I would also put my money on the competitor shooting major every time, assuming competitors are in the same class. I would even put it on a B shooter under Major rather than an A shooter shooting Minor.

Besides, this is not about IPSC, but about USPSA. IPSC just moved closer to USPSA by reducing their capacity. Right now we have 6 divisions. You can shoot just about any gun you want and be competitive with it. Why would you want to take 2 of the four Production guns I shoot and toss them on the scrap heap? My Sig and my XD would no longer have a home. I would be relegated to m G22 or G17. Or I could shoot at a disability. Sort of like shooting a Single Stack in Limited or Open.

Jim

Sure they would...You're XD would have a home in Limited 10. If you have a P226 it would also have a home in L10 and a P220 would have a home in single stack. If you are in fact referring to a P220, you're already using a gun that's disadvantaged in Production.

Just sayin'.

I think he was referring to a home in production....

[d_striker]

I think he was referring to a home in production....

Well, there was reference to throwing them in the scrap heap.

[G-ManBart]

Bart, I’m going to reply to you because you seem to be summing up the opposition fairly well, and I just don’t have time to respond to everyone else.

What the people at Nationals used really doesn't matter. What matters is that there are a lot of perfectly suitable Production guns that would be hindered by an increase to 15-rounds. The appeal, to many, is not having to buy a new gun and/or mags. Change the current rule, and lots of folks are going to think they need to buy a new gun.

I disagree. Nationals shows what guns are truly competitive platforms in any division. Lower level matches are not able to do this nearly as well. Do you disagree? Also the guns you call “perfectly suitable” for production that would be hindered, by and large are only marginally suitable for competition purposes. Correct? Rules wise, the guns that are marginally suitable competition wise would still be perfectly suitable by the rules (like a Glock 23) because a 13 round magazine can still be used and if the person wanted to they could just put a Glock 22 mag in their G23 and be loaded to full capacity.

Nationals is a sub-set of our sport, in some ways. The majority of our members don't shoot Nationals every year, and many (most?) never at all. So, sure, it might show what guns can be competitive, but that doesn't mean those are the only guns that are competitive. Fictional example: a guy wants to shoot USPSA and owns a Beretta 96. We've had guys finish at/near the top at Nationals with a Beretta 92 before right? Pretty much the identical gun, so the competitiveness of the platform should be the same. Well, our guy only has 12rd mags, and there isn't a 15rd alternative. So, to be competitive, he's got to shoot Limited-10, or be stuck at a disadvantage of 3rds (20% less) in Production-15. So, he shoots L10 and feels like he's getting screwed trying to compete against guys with $3-4K 2011s. That's the guy that Production serves perfectly now. On the G23 issue, if we start allowing mags from other models, so people can get the full 15rds, we're looking at yet another rule change, and all the BS that goes along with them...not worth it. "Why can he use a G22 mag in his G23, when they don't make a bigger mag for my xyz blaster?".

What Open and Limited shooters do has absolutely no bearing on what a Production shooter does/should be able to do. Essentially, you're saying "make Production more like Limited/Open, so I can shoot stages the way those guys do". The only thing that matters is how you do it, in relation to the other Production shooters. Maybe you'd like to add a scope and compensator while you're at it...hey, that will let you shoot on the move, at longer distances, just like the Open shooters, right? Changes to make Production more similar to another division, are a bad idea.

IMO it would be more fun and let me utilize more of my skill set by being able to shoot stages a little more like the Limited/Open shooters, in particular with greater opportunity to engage targets on the move. I just want to fill my mag a bit more and let my gun perform a little closer to what it was designed to do, which has nothing to do with adding a scope or compensator. I don’t at all follow your line of argument that changes to make Production more similar to another division is a bad idea, as doing so would making them considerably less similar to L10 and SS minor.

If you think more rounds would be fun, and let you take better advantage of your skill set...shoot Limited or Open There are probably people that would say "hey, I'm killer at reloads and if you increase the mag capacity by 50%, I have less opportunity to take advantage of my skill set". L10 and SS Minor really aren't remotely similar to Production save mag capacity. Production is, and should be, the Division that is most welcoming to what are the most common/popular street guns being sold today. Change the mag capacity rule, and force some of those prospective new shooters into L10, and they're likely to be put off when they see what the average L10 shooter has in his/her holster. That isn't the case with Production as it stands.

Any time a rule change is suggested, the critical factors (my opinion) are 1) how many new shooters will this change bring in. 2) how will it harm, discourage, or drive away current shooters? Your change won't bring any new folks, and it might drive off some current members....that equals a bad idea.

You are falsely assuming with certainty the rule change will not bring in any more shooters, and your guessing that it might drive some off. I challenge both assumptions and you can follow my reasoning which is supported by some evidence.

First if you look at the results of our last USPSA Nationals you will see the popularity of Production trails Open and Limited, by a wide margin. However if you look at the last IPSC European Championships (where they load 15) Production is (by far) the most popular class.

On a local level you can look at the results of the last, and every, Tuesday Night Steel, which I believe you have shot, and you will see that novice shooters by far and away enter in Limited division over Production in spite of the fact that most novices do not show up with wide body single action .40s. Most of them are starting with guns perfectly suitable for Production but for whatever reason want to shoot Limited anyway.

If you want a true gauge of how popular Production is, Nationals aren't your best bet. Go look at at the results for Sectional matches, and things look different. At many of them Production is equally popular, and at a couple, was the most popular. I suspect that's because more of the newer shooters are willing to shoot their Sectional, but not travel to Nationals, and a lot of them (most?) start out in Production. It may also be financial in nature...you can't afford a Limited/Open gun, but you can afford a Production rig, so you may not be able to afford the $1000 to $1500 most of us spend to go to Nationals.

I wouldn't call IPSC a good comparison for U.S. Production either. The gun laws in many/most IPSC countries are such that coming up with a Limited or Open gun can be exceedingly prohibitive....try getting parts for your Open build in most of those countries...forget it.

TNS is a great match, and yes, I've shot it. I can totally understand why a newbie would want to load their mags fully....it's steel, and people miss a lot shooting it.

Why in the world would increasing from 10 to 15 invite more folks than the current rules? That makes no sense at all. If you have a gun that holds 15, you can download it to 10 and be set. If you have a gun that hold 13, and everybody else has 15, you're at a disadvantage. So, more prospective shooters would be at a disadvantage after a change to 15 round limits....that's going to turn at least a few away that the current rules invite with open arms.

My guess is that beginners don’t want to change magazines that often, or don't have that many mags, or maybe want to minimize the risk of feeling stupid in front of a crowd taking standing reloads in front of a Texas star. Maybe they just want to finish higher in the overall than their buddy they came with who has a revolver. Good, bad, or whatever reason, the fact is I see guys preferring to load to only 13 or 15, or 17 and shoot Limited than download to 10 and shoot Production.

My club has more Production shooters than anything else, and while some newbies will load full mags, and shoot Limited, for a few matches, they don't seem to do that for long.

I'm with you on that one....I probably wouldn't shoot any Production if they made the change, but I would shoot SS and Limited. R,

Really? You wouldn’t shoot 15 rounds, but you would shoot divisions with more & less? Why?

I wouldn't shoot Production-15 because it's too much like Limited. When I shoot Production, it's to shoot a gun like my carry guns, and do so under harder conditions (less mag capacity, no magwell, etc). Production-15 would be too much like shooting Limited. When I shoot SS, it's to shoot one of my 1911s under harder conditions that essentially force everyone to shoot the stages almost exactly the same way...I'm simply trying to execute better than everybody else. Even the two extra rounds for Production often leave you a couple of shots for makeups. Production-15 would dilute that even more. R,

[Field]

im not really adding much here but i agree that allowing 15rnd mag capacity for production similar to ipsc shooting would muddle things a bit. Keep it simple, you want to use a bigger stick, play in Limited.

If you want to shoot a certain division, get good at the skillset it requires and quit arguing about the rules, they arent going to change.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Field

[G-ManBart]

Sure they would...You're XD would have a home in Limited 10. If you have a P226 it would also have a home in L10 and a P220 would have a home in single stack. If you are in fact referring to a P220, you're already using a gun that's disadvantaged in Production. Any gun that would become "obsolete" in Production would have a home in L10.

Just sayin'.

You can't shoot a P220 in Single Stack.

Try telling the newbie that shows up with his XD how he's on an even playing field with the guy that has a $3500 2011 in his holster, even if they both have only 10 in their mags. Even if it is true, they're not going to believe it. It's the same thing that people think/say when I'm shooting an Open gun and they comment how much easier it must be...then I'll pull out the Production gun to shoot the classifier, and they see I'm almost the same amount ahead of them with a "normal" gun. The last time that happened, a guy saw me pull out the M&P and said "Oh, I can't wait to see this". I'd run the classifier around 3.2s down two or three points. I ran it in something like 3.8s with the M&P, also two or three down...none of those guys were even under 6 as I recall. It's all about perception, and the perception (correctly) is that Production really is an even playing field right now. R,

[GrumpyOne]

Sure they would...You're XD would have a home in Limited 10. If you have a P226 it would also have a home in L10 and a P220 would have a home in single stack. If you are in fact referring to a P220, you're already using a gun that's disadvantaged in Production. Any gun that would become "obsolete" in Production would have a home in L10.

Just sayin'.

You can't shoot a P220 in Single Stack.

Try telling the newbie that shows up with his XD how he's on an even playing field with the guy that has a $3500 2011 in his holster, even if they both have only 10 in their mags. Even if it is true, they're not going to believe it. It's the same thing that people think/say when I'm shooting an Open gun and they comment how much easier it must be...then I'll pull out the Production gun to shoot the classifier, and they see I'm almost the same amount ahead of them with a "normal" gun. The last time that happened, a guy saw me pull out the M&P and said "Oh, I can't wait to see this". I'd run the classifier around 3.2s down two or three points. I ran it in something like 3.8s with the M&P, also two or three down...none of those guys were even under 6 as I recall. It's all about perception, and the perception (correctly) is that Production really is an even playing field right now. R,

+10 Production is like the IROC races of old....Everyone gets the same car...It's up to the driver and pit crew to make the difference between winning and losing.

[bulm540]

As the Saying goes, Let's not fix something that ain't broken.

[chefcs5]

Production is, and should be, the Division that is most welcoming to what are the most common/popular street guns being sold today. Change the mag capacity rule, and force some of those prospective new shooters into L10, and they're likely to be put off when they see what the average L10 shooter has in his/her holster. That isn't the case with Production as it stands.

This I would have to disagree with on some points there G-Man buddy. Id have to say 90% of the production guns sold today do have a capacity of more than 10 rounds. I mean if it holds true to the info I recieved at the store this week was glocks most popular model was the 17, springfields was the xd in 9mm. They both hold well in excess of 10 rounds. Not that I disagree on the entire rest of your post but if most of the gus sold are high cap why for that case would the production divsion change to match that. But that is just waht I think and Im no expert.lol.

[GrumpyOne]

As the Saying goes, Let's not fix something that ain't broken.

Copy cat! I said that back in post #94

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=116250&view=findpost&p=1318537

[d_striker]

Sure they would...You're XD would have a home in Limited 10. If you have a P226 it would also have a home in L10 and a P220 would have a home in single stack. If you are in fact referring to a P220, you're already using a gun that's disadvantaged in Production. Any gun that would become "obsolete" in Production would have a home in L10.

Just sayin'.

You can't shoot a P220 in Single Stack.

Try telling the newbie that shows up with his XD how he's on an even playing field with the guy that has a $3500 2011 in his holster, even if they both have only 10 in their mags. Even if it is true, they're not going to believe it. It's the same thing that people think/say when I'm shooting an Open gun and they comment how much easier it must be...then I'll pull out the Production gun to shoot the classifier, and they see I'm almost the same amount ahead of them with a "normal" gun. The last time that happened, a guy saw me pull out the M&P and said "Oh, I can't wait to see this". I'd run the classifier around 3.2s down two or three points. I ran it in something like 3.8s with the M&P, also two or three down...none of those guys were even under 6 as I recall. It's all about perception, and the perception (correctly) is that Production really is an even playing field right now. R,

Its the exact same for everyone telling that same person to load it up and shoot Limited minor with their xd. At least going to L10, everyone has the options of shooting major.

[G-ManBart]

Production is, and should be, the Division that is most welcoming to what are the most common/popular street guns being sold today. Change the mag capacity rule, and force some of those prospective new shooters into L10, and they're likely to be put off when they see what the average L10 shooter has in his/her holster. That isn't the case with Production as it stands.

This I would have to disagree with on some points there G-Man buddy. Id have to say 90% of the production guns sold today do have a capacity of more than 10 rounds. I mean if it holds true to the info I recieved at the store this week was glocks most popular model was the 17, springfields was the xd in 9mm. They both hold well in excess of 10 rounds. Not that I disagree on the entire rest of your post but if most of the gus sold are high cap why for that case would the production divsion change to match that. But that is just waht I think and Im no expert.lol.

Sure most of them do, and that means they fit within the group of guns being "welcomed" by 10rd mag limits. There are plenty of guns in the 10-14rd mag capacity that would be at a disadvantage should the limit be raised to 15. So, a 10rd limit includes more total models of guns than a 15rd limit. That's not really an opinion, just math...and since it doesn't make higher capacity guns less competitive, it's a win-win.

[G-ManBart]

Sure they would...You're XD would have a home in Limited 10. If you have a P226 it would also have a home in L10 and a P220 would have a home in single stack. If you are in fact referring to a P220, you're already using a gun that's disadvantaged in Production. Any gun that would become "obsolete" in Production would have a home in L10.

Just sayin'.

You can't shoot a P220 in Single Stack.

Try telling the newbie that shows up with his XD how he's on an even playing field with the guy that has a $3500 2011 in his holster, even if they both have only 10 in their mags. Even if it is true, they're not going to believe it. It's the same thing that people think/say when I'm shooting an Open gun and they comment how much easier it must be...then I'll pull out the Production gun to shoot the classifier, and they see I'm almost the same amount ahead of them with a "normal" gun. The last time that happened, a guy saw me pull out the M&P and said "Oh, I can't wait to see this". I'd run the classifier around 3.2s down two or three points. I ran it in something like 3.8s with the M&P, also two or three down...none of those guys were even under 6 as I recall. It's all about perception, and the perception (correctly) is that Production really is an even playing field right now. R,

Its the exact same for everyone telling that same person to load it up and shoot Limited minor with their xd. At least going to L10, everyone has the options of shooting major.

No, it's not really the same at all.

If someone wants to load up their mags and shoot Limited Minor, it's a choice they make and nobody is forcing them...they know going in that they'll be stuck shooting Minor and maybe even a few rounds short of the other folks in Limited. Right now, they can download to 10 and be on a level playing field. If they want to swim upstream so they can have more rounds in the mag...that's their decision.

If the mag capacity was bumped to 15, it would force some people to shoot at a disadvantage in Production, or make them move to L10, sometimes at a disadvantage in PF. Talk about screwing a newbie...hey, not only are you going to be shooting against $3500 custom guns, but they'll all be shooting Major to your Minor.

I'm sorry, but none of this makes sense. It's simply a minority of folks who want to change things because it would make them happy, and not about having the most inviting and fair Division possible. Edit to add: I'm not directing that at anyone in particular. R,

Edited November 1, 2010 by G-ManBart

[EkuJustice]

I would say keep it as is. If its not broke don't monkey around with it. As to being short on gear, I am sure if the shooter came out with say a glock right out of a box to most local matches with no holster, mag pouches extra mags or anything there would probibally be a rig pieced together for him to shoot the match with in pretty short order. Reloading is just part of the game. What about single stack, maby we should make that higher capacity too since it involves even more reloading. I would say for a new shooter coming out, most are going the have a production gun or a single stack gun

[GrumpyOne]

Sure they would...You're XD would have a home in Limited 10. If you have a P226 it would also have a home in L10 and a P220 would have a home in single stack. If you are in fact referring to a P220, you're already using a gun that's disadvantaged in Production. Any gun that would become "obsolete" in Production would have a home in L10.

Just sayin'.

You can't shoot a P220 in Single Stack.

Try telling the newbie that shows up with his XD how he's on an even playing field with the guy that has a $3500 2011 in his holster, even if they both have only 10 in their mags. Even if it is true, they're not going to believe it. It's the same thing that people think/say when I'm shooting an Open gun and they comment how much easier it must be...then I'll pull out the Production gun to shoot the classifier, and they see I'm almost the same amount ahead of them with a "normal" gun. The last time that happened, a guy saw me pull out the M&P and said "Oh, I can't wait to see this". I'd run the classifier around 3.2s down two or three points. I ran it in something like 3.8s with the M&P, also two or three down...none of those guys were even under 6 as I recall. It's all about perception, and the perception (correctly) is that Production really is an even playing field right now. R,

Its the exact same for everyone telling that same person to load it up and shoot Limited minor with their xd. At least going to L10, everyone has the options of shooting major.

No, it's not really the same at all.

If someone wants to load up their mags and shoot Limited Minor, it's a choice they make and nobody is forcing them...they know going in that they'll be stuck shooting Minor and maybe even a few rounds short of the other folks in Limited. Right now, they can download to 10 and be on a level playing field. If they want to swim upstream so they can have more rounds in the mag...that's their decision.

If the mag capacity was bumped to 15, it would force some people to shoot at a disadvantage in Production, or make them move to L10, sometimes at a disadvantage in PF. Talk about screwing a newbie...hey, not only are you going to be shooting against $3500 custom guns, but they'll all be shooting Major to your Minor.

I'm sorry, but none of this makes sense. It's simply a minority of folks who want to change things because it would make them happy, and not about having the most inviting and fair Division possible. R,

This is the exact reason I went with a 40 S&W for production. Sure, the 9 maybe a bit easier to shoot recoil wise, and sure, there are probably more of them out there in 9, but if I decide to shoot another division (Limited/Limited 10), I won't be at a disadvantage PF wise, as I can shoot major with it, and I can probably find the right mags to load 'em up for Limited. Obviously, I can't modify the gun when shooting L/L-10, as then I wouldn't be able to shoot Production with it, but at least you won't be stuck shooting minor...Minor sucks!

[bulm540]

As the Saying goes, Let's not fix something that ain't broken.

Copy cat! I said that back in post #94

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=116250&view=findpost&p=1318537

Sorry Grumpy, didn't sse your post.

[smokshwn]

As the Saying goes, Let's not fix something that ain't broken.

Copy cat! I said that back in post #94

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=116250&view=findpost&p=1318537

Sorry Grumpy, didn't sse your post.

Don't worry, it isn't that big of a deal as it has been said multiple times in multiple threads on this same subject by multiple posters.....

Lots of multiples there

[RIIID]

Production has been around for 10 years, it's growing and if left alone it will rival Open/Limited. I can remember the the talk of 15 rounds was thrown around back in '03, it was a bad idea back then as it is today. Most people asking for 15 rds just don't understand Production, it's identity is minor scoring, double/like action, concealed type holster, and 10 rounds. Change any one of these and it isn't Prod. anymore. You want to shoot with higher capacity go to Open or Limited, don't try to create a new Div. to suit yourself. Maybe someone needs to compile a complete history of USPSA, for new and seasoned shooters to understand the sport we all enjoy.

Rich

[LPatterson]

I've been away from the forum to attend the Nationals so I only skimmed through the posts. What I see are the same old arguements; I want to do something that is not in the rules so why not change the rules just for me. FACE IT FOLKS LIFE IS NOT FAIR OR THE SAME FOR EVERYONE ONE. Production was started back in the bad ole days of the 10rd mag ban and some states are still living there. I haven't heard any complaints (LATELY) about the 6 rounds only between reloads by revolver shooters when there are 8 shooters available. Hard core 8 round shooters moved to ICORE like some of the hard core (NO EQUIPMENT RACE) USPSA shooters moved to IDPA. PARAPHRASE Ask not that the organization change to fit what you want but how best to support what the organization is trying to do for the majority of it's members.

Remember not all change has been for the GOOD.

[Leozinho]

It's easily apparent that most existing USPSA members are split on this issue down the middle. I realize that you can't please everyone.

Not sure if down the middle is the right line where shooters are split. I routinely talk to the people I shoot with. Part of being an AD. I'm getting substantially less than 50% that want the Production capacity changed. Adding you and Chad I've now heard from 3 people that want it to be 15. I've heard from close to 100 that don't want it changed. New shooters, experienced shooters. GM's, D's. Doesn't really seem to matter. Some will initially say, it'd be neat to have 15, but when the down side is mentioned, immediately change to 10 is better.

Add me to your "leave it at 10" count. I have a couple of reasons. I have a duty 229 that I occasionally shoot which only holds 12, and I don't think I should have to shoot minor against $3500 S_I's making major just because a handful of people don't like mag changes. More importantly, I enjoy the challenge of the extra mag changes. It's another thing to set Production apart from Limited.

My 229 emphasizes the point already made about the dangers of looking at equipment at Nationals to make decisions. Not too many folks (ie none) going to Nationals are going to shoot at 229, but that doesn't mean beginners don't get their start with it or similar guns, or that old hands like to bring out different guns from time to time.

Seriously, if mag changes bother someone enough to start a campaign to change the rules, they should already be shooting Limited.

Edited November 3, 2010 by Leozinho

[sslav]

Want to start rock climbing? Mortgage your house.

Unless things changed a great deal over the last decade, a couple of ropes, shoes, harness, a full rack with plenty of active cams and a few odds and ends is less than what I spend on ammo every year.

As to the subject at hand, do we really need to rehash this discussion with all of the same arguments yet again? Production is one of the most popular divisions that we have. There is absolutely no reason to change it.