Over Heating Barrel - 50 rds in < 20 seconds

[CocoBolo]

This past weekend one of the Clubs had a match with 6 50 round stages. I passed on the match because I think that 50 rounds in less than 20 seconds is putting too much heat into the barrel actually I think one of the stages was hosed in 14 seconds. I know this would be dependent on the powder etc, but in general is this enough to produce too much heat in the average open gun with a typical load and result in permanent damage?

[sirveyr]

I am not an Open shooter, but if putting 50 rounds through any gun might hurt it, I think I would be looking for a different gun.

I'm sure someone will be by to flame me now...

[edwin garcia]

I'll find out in a few days. I'm sighting in my gun before gator, I'll let you know.

I just shot 6 of those stages, some are even more than 50 rounds(hit-mike-mike...).

I doubt if it does if you do it on rare occasions.

Chronic, habitual 50+ round under 20 seconds(some shooters even shot a 14-17 second runs) will most likely wear out your barrel fast.

But we sure did have lotsa fun!

Just my opinion.

[Bigpops]

Ron,

Did you ever read the article by Bob L. "Too hot to handle"? If not it is on his webpage under "magazine articles". http://www.brazoscustom.com/Home.htm

Steve

[BritinUSA]

RM 300 has this kind of match every year. I don't think that you can heat the barrel beyond the temps of the gases. After about 10 rounds I suspect that the barrel is as hot as its going to get even if you throw another 40 down there. I've never seem guns fail at the RM300 because of the heat. I've seen shooters melt their trigger finger though, the cadence of shots gets noticeably longer toward the end of the stage.

[MarkCO]

This past weekend one of the Clubs had a match with 6 50 round stages. I passed on the match because I think that 50 rounds in less than 20 seconds is putting too much heat into the barrel actually I think one of the stages was hosed in 14 seconds. I know this would be dependent on the powder etc, but in general is this enough to produce too much heat in the average open gun with a typical load and result in permanent damage?

Coco, with a pistol, there really is no concern. I have conducted several tests over the years on various steels with a variety of barrel configurations, semi-auto and full-auto with active data collection (temperature and stress) packages. In reality, to get to a point where you have a wear problem inside the barrel, you have to exceed 500 degrees F on the exterior. On a gun with a bushing that is very tight, there is a possibility of increased wear due to differential thermal expansion, but only on the bushing itself. The hood, links, etc. have enough tolerance that thermal expansion will not cause any interference, and thus malfunction or wear issues.

With some of the "marginal" lubes, higher temperatures WILL change their properties detrimentally. With the synthetics, they will all take temperatures that are hotter than you can get your pistol. The question is will the lube stay where you want it. Probably why a lot of us use Slide Glide!

Hope this helped some.

[GentlemanJim]

Remember when Todd Jarret put 1000 rounds thru a Para 45acp as fast as he could load it

That gun was SMOKIN HOT...and still ran fine, I would guess the barrel was hurt but still kept going

I dont think 50 rounds would worry me much

Jim

[Chris Keen]

I've seen guys put 60 rounds (2 full mags) through an open gun in 10 seconds, just shooting into the berm. I'm not sure why 50 rounds in 20 seconds would scare you, but if it does, perhaps you need to get a better gun.

[Sarge]

RM 300 has this kind of match every year. I don't think that you can heat the barrel beyond the temps of the gases. After about 10 rounds I suspect that the barrel is as hot as its going to get even if you throw another 40 down there. I've never seem guns fail at the RM300 because of the heat. I've seen shooters melt their trigger finger though, the cadence of shots gets noticeably longer toward the end of the stage.

I'm probably not as smart as you but when we shot machine guns back in the day those barrels would start glowing red after several hundred rounds. I never saw one glow red after only ten rounds.

[sirveyr]

RM 300 has this kind of match every year. I don't think that you can heat the barrel beyond the temps of the gases. After about 10 rounds I suspect that the barrel is as hot as its going to get even if you throw another 40 down there. I've never seem guns fail at the RM300 because of the heat. I've seen shooters melt their trigger finger though, the cadence of shots gets noticeably longer toward the end of the stage.

I'm probably not as smart as you but when we shot machine guns back in the day those barrels would start glowing red after several hundred rounds. I never saw one glow red after only ten rounds.

I've burned my share of AK-47 handguards...

[pjb45]

I believe the TJ test was 10,000 rounds not a 1,000.

[ParaGunner]

Remember when Todd Jarret put 1000 rounds thru a Para 45acp as fast as he could load it

That gun was SMOKIN HOT...and still ran fine, I would guess the barrel was hurt but still kept going

I dont think 50 rounds would worry me much

Jim

In the Para catalog on one of the pages he shot a 2" group after firing all those rounds. So I don't think the barrel was damaged.

[Chris Keen]

[CocoBolo]

Ron,

Did you ever read the article by Bob L. "Too hot to handle"? If not it is on his webpage under "magazine articles". http://www.brazoscustom.com/Home.htm

Steve

Thanks for the tip, it does look like the barrel temp based on Bob's information would exceed 200.. No short term damage, but no one has tracked long term damage.

We are just talking barrel here so I don't know that I can find any better barrels than I am already using. STI, Schuemann. These should last 40-50k if not abused.

[grkmec]

I would love to shoot a match with 50+ round stages... wait, I am next weekend at the Monster Match in FL

[MarkCO]

We are just talking barrel here so I don't know that I can find any better barrels than I am already using. STI, Schuemann. These should last 40-50k if not abused.

If you are just talking barrel damage, then there is not an issue at all in a pistol, at least as far as temperature is concerned. I've done numerous barrel failure analyses for a variety of reasons, some for manufacturers. Testing has confirmed metal temperatures that can be acheived in a pistol are under 250F. Around 400 to 500F, depending on material, is where most of the heat related issues for mechanical wear, thermally induced erosion and thermal fatigue start to occur. You can not get enough heat (from shooting) in a pistol barrel to alter the metallurgy. Creep rupture in steels is over 900F so catastrophic failure is a total non-issue.

[Chills1994]

just another thing to keep in mind too...to a point the rest of the gun is acting like a heat sink and is drawing heat off the barrel.

[Hi-Power Jack]

This past weekend one of the Clubs had a match with 6 50 round stages. I passed on the match because I think that 50 rounds in less than 20 seconds is putting too much heat into the barrel actually I think one of the stages was hosed in 14 seconds. I know this would be dependent on the powder etc, but in general is this enough to produce too much heat in the average open gun with a typical load and result in permanent damage?

Heck, I usually fire more than 50 shots on 32 round COF's:(

[Whoops!]

We are just talking barrel here so I don't know that I can find any better barrels than I am already using. STI, Schuemann. These should last 40-50k if not abused.

If you are just talking barrel damage, then there is not an issue at all in a pistol, at least as far as temperature is concerned. I've done numerous barrel failure analyses for a variety of reasons, some for manufacturers. Testing has confirmed metal temperatures that can be acheived in a pistol are under 250F. Around 400 to 500F, depending on material, is where most of the heat related issues for mechanical wear, thermally induced erosion and thermal fatigue start to occur. You can not get enough heat (from shooting) in a pistol barrel to alter the metallurgy. Creep rupture in steels is over 900F so catastrophic failure is a total non-issue.

I imagine all of the tests done to examine these temperatures have been with standard pressure loads? How much of a difference in temperature is there between a regular 115 grain 9mm at 1150 fps and my 9mm at 1600 fps? Anybody have any idea about temperatures with 9mm or .38 super major?

[Sandro]

I think it depends on the powder as well. I went from Tite Group to N320 not because Tite Group was dirty but because my gun was always too hot during practice. I usualy shoot two mags and take a break, but sometimes you are doing the Bill drill again and again so getting the gun hot is easy.

[CocoBolo]

I imagine all of the tests done to examine these temperatures have been with standard pressure loads? How much of a difference in temperature is there between a regular 115 grain 9mm at 1150 fps and my 9mm at 1600 fps? Anybody have any idea about temperatures with 9mm or .38 super major?

Ok, I got out the little paper that came with my Schumann barrel and it basically states that firing light weight high speed projectiles will reduce the life of the barrel to 1/5 - 1/10 of normal life or 5 to 10k rounds but their barrels will last longer. (this is referring to open guns in general 9 mm and 38 Super). I just replaced a barrel that had maybe 15K rounds on it because I could not put enough powder behind the bullet to make major. When discussing this, what I thought was a premature failure several folks eluded to the point that I may have over heated it during practice. No doubt I had not paid any attention to that. I've become more sensative to taking care of the barrel. I recently shot a 40 round per stage match and yes I hosed it good about 55 rounds in 20 seconds and the oil was burining off the slide etc. While helping reset steel I bent down and put a very nice burn on my arm from the side of the gun. I shoot AA#7 (10.5gr with magnum primers) and it does get hot.

[JThompson]

15/K???? You kidding me? I put 150 K on my last one.

JT

[Matt Cheely]

I wouldn't worry about a barrel till you're shooting a M16 and putting 30 rounds through it in 3 seconds.

Even guys that have autos still say their barrels last for 50k rounds.

[JThompson]

What did you say about mine Matt... it had no more lands left only grooves? lol It was still accurate as hell.

JT

[Matt Cheely]

Your barrel didn't look that bad. You could tell it was a little worn in the throat area, but that was it.