USPSA Nov BOD Meeting

[open17]

Things the board should discuss?

Juniors. I'm not seeing much in the way of active recruitment of the next generation.

Nothing on the USPSA site, and the latest "press release" in the SSC area is over

a year old.

Junior specific "starter package"?

Incentive for current members to recruit/sponsor a junior?

Online interactive demo?

Smart phone app?

[Joe4d]

Is there somewhere the membership can review the USPSA budget ? I feel like some pretty large expenditures are being made with out full transparency,

Evidently the new rule book isnt being called a new rule book its being called an Updated 2008 edition.

[Charles Bond]

I hear all these suggestions of what we should change and update, some I would like to see change. Are any of our suggestions going to be talked about or are we just talking amongst ourselves. Is there a more formal way to send in our suggestions for debate. Or maybe we ought to have a section for rule changes that we can discuss before the BOD sets the agenda, so that our suggestions can be part of the agenda. Instead of after the fact. Also the BOD agenda is just a vague outline, we ought to have the specifics. I am sure all of this is on the uspsa site, but I don't want to spend an hour looking for it like I did to find out my classification, with the new website, by the way the new website looks great!

All of these are valid points but it assumes two things:

1. Members need a better way to communicate with the BOD. I xan not speak for anyone else other than myself but I get a ton of communication from my members. I receive emails and phone calls and every now and then a letter. If you have ideas and suggestions, I think most members of the BOD are glad to discuss them with you and place them on the agenda.

2. Members of the BOD are not communicating effectively with the members. I hear this a lot. But I also hear it on about every issue and most of those issues are covered on the USPSA site, the area site, and in Front Sight. The usual response is "but there was nothing on the BE Forum about it." Keep in mind that the BE Forum does not exist to serve USPSA even though most of the active USPSA shooters visit regularly here. USPSA tried setting up their own forum but it ended up getting a new post only once or twice a month.

[wgnoyes]

I'm not sure if this is for the BOD, or just needs to be discussed with Rob and his group, but when Linda and Troy both say on-line squadding doesn't work for them, we need to look at making some changes. It's very convenient for the shooters. Certainly there's a way to make it work for the stats people also.

Well, speaking as a not-inexperienced stats officer (6 area six championships, 6 nationals, lotsa state matches, etc), I'll say that self-service squadding works fine for our major matches. Register people in ezws, upload to the website, people make their squadding choices, download back to ezws. Repeat as needed.

[rgkeller]

Is there somewhere the membership can review the USPSA budget ? I feel like some pretty large expenditures are being made with out full transparency,

Evidently the new rule book isnt being called a new rule book its being called an Updated 2008 edition.

The By Laws state that the Executive Director shall "v.) distribute copies of the audited or reviewed financial statements to the members via the

corporate newsletter and web page as soon as they have been approved by the Board of

Directors"

Hasn't happened in years.

[wgnoyes]

I'm not sure that's correct. Please state the last issue of Front Sight where you saw a financial statement.

[Rob Boudrie]

I'm not sure if this is for the BOD, or just needs to be discussed with Rob and his group, but when Linda and Troy both say on-line squadding doesn't work for them, we need to look at making some changes. It's very convenient for the shooters. Certainly there's a way to make it work for the stats people also.

I need more than a rumor to look at changes, and I have not been contacted with any specific info regarding why Linda and Troy say it doesn't work for them.

I don't know if this refers to some technical problem, or if the logistics of how on-line squadding works is not consistent with the way they run their matches. I do know that many major matches use the on-line squadding system without any problems.

[rgkeller]

I'm not sure that's correct. Please state the last issue of Front Sight where you saw a financial statement.

Sometime in the 90's

How about you? Anything more recent? Anything in the past five years?

[Rob Boudrie]

I am guessing that means the discussion will be whether to release the HHF, since the info isn't hard to find now (with the internet)?

As the originator of the original Classifier Calculator, if you (BOD) have any questions that I might help to shed some light on, let me know.

Speaking only for myself and not the entire board...

I am going to propose that USPSA lift the veil of confidentiality on high hit factors. I also will be drafting a proposed policy that will allow those with interesting projects like the Classifier Calculator to make arrangements for a direct data feed from USPSA so their data is always current.

Although I could put together a HHF calculator once approval is granted, I have no plans on doing so. When people come up with cool ideas, like the HHF Calculators that are available on the web, I want to support them - not use the advantage that direct access to the data give uspsa.org to squash their efforts.

[wgnoyes]

2. Members of the BOD are not communicating effectively with the members. I hear this a lot. But I also hear it on about every issue and most of those issues are covered on the USPSA site, the area site, and in Front Sight. The usual response is "but there was nothing on the BE Forum about it." Keep in mind that the BE Forum does not exist to serve USPSA even though most of the active USPSA shooters visit regularly here. USPSA tried setting up their own forum but it ended up getting a new post only once or twice a month.

And they're not communicating effectively (Bod members). "Effectively"? Hell, sometimes not at all! The forum isn't the only way to tell people what's going on. There's a bulletin feature of the website that would be a 2 minute exercise to drop a note into saying something like "new rulebook available online" instead of having to find out about it by accident on BE, which is a non-uspsa source. With THIS uspsa.org being based on a content-management systems (that is, a big elaborate blog), there's now absolutely NO reason why uspsa shouldn't utilitize it to tell us about current, pressing events as they happen. If there are things Section Coordinators need to know about, it's not a big labor-intensive exercise to maintain a mailing list of the SC's in uspsa's commercial email service so that such info can be sent without a lot of trouble.

For instance, how many of you know that SC's will be getting slots to the single stack nationals soon to hand out to their clubs, and that they have to be back in to uspsa by Dec 31st? (Surprise!) I didn't know that until I asked M.Voigt at the members' meeting to describe what was going on with single-stack and slots and whatnot and got much more in response than I'd bargained for.

[wgnoyes]

I'm not sure that's correct. Please state the last issue of Front Sight where you saw a financial statement.

Sometime in the 90's

How about you? Anything more recent? Anything in the past five years?

Well yes, it's a yearly feature, even according to some of the most severe critics I know who say it's not a full complete statement, it is in fact still there.

[vluc]

For instance, how many of you know that SC's will be getting slots to the single stack nationals soon to hand out to their clubs, and that they have to be back in to uspsa by Dec 31st? (Surprise!) I didn't know that until I asked M.Voigt at the members' meeting to describe what was going on with single-stack and slots and whatnot and got much more in response than I'd bargained for.

Have to say I did not get that memo either....

[sperman]

I'm not sure if this is for the BOD, or just needs to be discussed with Rob and his group, but when Linda and Troy both say on-line squadding doesn't work for them, we need to look at making some changes. It's very convenient for the shooters. Certainly there's a way to make it work for the stats people also.

I need more than a rumor to look at changes, and I have not been contacted with any specific info regarding why Linda and Troy say it doesn't work for them.

I don't know if this refers to some technical problem, or if the logistics of how on-line squadding works is not consistent with the way they run their matches. I do know that many major matches use the on-line squadding system without any problems.

From the thread on 2010 Nationals squadding:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=post&section=post&do=reply_post&f=221&t=114144&qpid=1296194

Sperman is obviously aware that I HATE online squadding. This was the first time [MG Nationals] I ever used it. Request of the MD - not my choice. Can't say I'm in a huge hurry to use it again. It was a lot more work than my usual method.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

And, for the final time, the self squadding system does not work with the way USPSA HQ does registration, because that information is tied into their database and it does not import well at all. Additionally, there are just as many squad request calls with self squadding as there are with the way we do it.

Troy

I'm sure Linda and Troy can provide more details. Lots of matches use online squadding without issue, but if USPSA HQ can't use it for the Nationals, there must be some features that could be added to make more people happy.

Mods, should this discussion be split into a different thread?

[wgnoyes]

It's not a matter of they can't use it for the nationals, rather, they won't use it. USPSA registers everyone in a msAccess, um, "program" and they don't want to use anything else, including their own ezws. It creates a ezws match file when they're ready to go, but it's never a clean match file (loads of people registered in the non-existent rifle and shotgun matches, for instance) and this year I had to perform surgery on both the Open-L10 and the LPR with my copy of access before we could complete scoring of the nationals.

As I wrote earlier in this thread, the 4-step flow of self-service squadding is register people in ezws, upload to the website, let people squad themselves, download squadding choices back into ezws. Repeat as needed. The msaccess system doesn't fit into that. And yes, we're drifting.

[joecichlid]

Juniors. I'm not seeing much in the way of active recruitment of the next generation.

Nothing on the USPSA site...

+1000 I agree that there needs to be more of an effort to bring Juniors into the sport, they are our future and we need to treat them as such. Our club has one junior shooter and whenever we have new shooters come into the club I let them know about Junior shooters in case they have kids. This year I was lucky enough to shoot with two Juniors and it was great seeing them take on the stages. Heck, at the awards gathering I wish they had made more of an effort to congratulate the Juniors. I was lucky enough to be seated with a few of the Juniors and I made sure to try and let them know I was glad they were there competing and in some, OK most, cases kicking my butt and that I would be following their shooting careers as much as possible.

If the kids aren't having fun they won't want to do it, if they don't keep up the sport it dies. Simple as that.

Joe W.

[a63829]

Definitely the topic of coming out with the dates for the Nationals. The dates should be confirmed and posted by no later than March of every year in order to give people enough time to purchase flight tickets ahead of time.

[wgnoyes]

I'd rather have it available by Dec 31 of the previous year. Lots of people have to plan and schedule their vacations with their work that far ahead.

[Sandro]

we have done two local matches with "on-line" sign up now. This would be very easy to manage and anyone can pay with CC. If you need a contact from our local area in how getting it done please let me know.

[BritinUSA]

I'd rather have it available by Dec 31 of the previous year. Lots of people have to plan and schedule their vacations with their work that far ahead.

I agree completely. In fact I'd go further and say that I think the dates/place of the next Nationals should be announced at the close of the current Nationals.

[professor]

For example, I am looking at Todd Jarret's classifier page right now (L2458). He shot CM 99-04, Pucker Factor, on September 5th, 2010. He got a 100% on it. He shot it at the Fredericksburg Rod and Gun club. By the looks of it though, they don't post results to their website. So I can't see what kind of points Todd got and what his time was.

It would give me and others something to strive for..."Oh, hey, isn't that CM _____ ? Bob Vogel shot that in ___ seconds with ____ points...I think I can shoot it in _____ time."

The reason Fredericksburg Rod and Gun [and just about every other USPSA-affiliated club in the country] didn't post results to their website is because ALL these results are available through the USPSA website under "Local Matches". Even with the new website, you can access matches prior to October 2010 and get complete postings of EVERY shooter, down to the A,B,C,D,M,N,P shots of each stage.

For example, here's Todd's results for the match you reference.

http://www.uspsa.org/legacy/summary.php?year=2010&match=09_05&local=1&clubid=VA14&uspsa=L2458

Of course, if someone scores 100% on a classifier, all you really know is that the HHF for that classifier is no higher than the HF they scored when shooting that stage. IOW, you don't get a classifier Pct higher than 100%.

Edited October 26, 2010 by professor

[d_striker]

I disagree. Even though I am glad I live in a free state , limitting Production to 10 rounds allows for a level playing field even for those poor saps that are stuck in places like CA.

For all practical puposes this argument's bogus too. Regardless of the law people still shoot Open in CA with full mags. Besides the tail shouldn't really be wagging the dog with regards to gun laws and shooting sports.

I think 15 rounds in Production would attract more new shooters. I shot my first match about a two months ago. When IPSC changed the rule I thought USPSA rules were the same as I'm a new shooter. I showed up with a 9mm and three mags and then learned that USPSA Production rules only allowed 10 rounds. I was faced with a dilemma, either shoot Limited Minor or load the 3 mags I had with 10. Obviously, I shot Limited Minor as 3 mags loaded up to 10 weren't going to cut it. The one thing I learned from my first match was that shooting Limited Minor sucks. Now I only shoot Limited after upgrading a lot of my equipment.

I will probably never own an Open gun or a Revolver. While I love 1911's, I will never shoot single stack or limited 10. I would shoot Production in a heartbeat if they upped the capacity to 15. I think a lot of new shooters would as well.

[GrumpyOne]

I disagree. Even though I am glad I live in a free state , limitting Production to 10 rounds allows for a level playing field even for those poor saps that are stuck in places like CA.

For all practical puposes this argument's bogus too. Regardless of the law people still shoot Open in CA with full mags. Besides the tail shouldn't really be wagging the dog with regards to gun laws and shooting sports.

I think 15 rounds in Production would attract more new shooters. I shot my first match about a two months ago. When IPSC changed the rule I thought USPSA rules were the same as I'm a new shooter. I showed up with a 9mm and three mags and then learned that USPSA Production rules only allowed 10 rounds. I was faced with a dilemma, either shoot Limited Minor or load the 3 mags I had with 10. Obviously, I shot Limited Minor as 3 mags loaded up to 10 weren't going to cut it. The one thing I learned from my first match was that shooting Limited Minor sucks. Now I only shoot Limited after upgrading a lot of my equipment.

I will probably never own an Open gun or a Revolver. While I love 1911's, I will never shoot single stack or limited 10. I would shoot Production in a heartbeat if they upped the capacity to 15. I think a lot of new shooters would as well.

I disagree. Keep production at 10. If you move it up to 15, then essentially all you are doing in shooting Limited 15 in minor. Production is for new shooters to get their feet wet, so to speak, and reloading is a skill that must be learned to do well in this sport. Even open shooters have to reload (once in a while! ). As for showing up with only 3 mags, well, there are IPSC rules and USPSA rules...Make sure what type match you are shooting...

By the way, the first match I ever shot, I showed up with my SS 45ACP and 1 seven round mag. The guys (and girls!) at the match let me borrow everything else I needed, which included mag pouches, 8 round mags, holster, the works. I'm sure if you would have asked around, someone would have had some gear for you to borrow. IMO, having only 3 mags is a poor excuse for shooting Limited instead of shooting Production.

Edited October 26, 2010 by GrumpyOne

[d_striker]

@grumpyone

I'm not trying to argue at all on this. I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

However.....

I showed up with 3 mags because that was all I had for that gun. That's also the number of mags that many non competition shooters have as well for their factory guns. Most of these same people also have a double mag pouch. If not, they only cost $20.

You're probably right that I could have borrowed mags but 1. I hate being that guy and 2. I wouldn't have had any way of carrying additional mags other than my pockets. I don't think that it's a very good approach for a new shooter to do this as it has dq written all over it.

Edited October 27, 2010 by d_striker

[Jim Norman]

I'll chime in here on this latest question.

Production WORKS AS IT IS! 10 rounds, shoot 9mm, 40, 45, make it 15 and you shoot 9, a few 40's and no 45's and yes people do own and shoot all these. I have only two guns in my safe that would allow me to shoot 9mm in production. I have a bunch that I can shoot competitively in .40.

Keep the carry type holster. "Race" holsters are for the other divisions.

Why does everyone have to want to mess with success?

[Flexmoney]

Although I could put together a HHF calculator once approval is granted, I have no plans on doing so. When people come up with cool ideas, like the HHF Calculators that are available on the web, I want to support them - not use the advantage that direct access to the data give uspsa.org to squash their efforts.

Rob, that was my idea...and I helped get the original calculator going (with most of the grunt work being done by a guy that actually knew how to get in done and online).

He isn't doing it anymore, and I'd be happy to have it on the USPSA website. (that is where I originally wanted it)