Nationals rule knowledge

[boz1911]

I saw and was involved with several rules/scoring issues at this years Nationals.

1) Start position: Toes on marks. I had my toes on the left side of "the marks" but still touching the marks. I was doing this because of a tight turn to the right after the start. The RO made me center my toes on the marks. I would have had no issue with this had he been the only RO for that stage and made every shooter do the same, but that was simply not the case.

2) Had two hits on a head shot with one being at the edge. The grease ring was damn near or touching the perf. The RO called Bravo-Mike. I immediately asked for an overlay, adding a reminder to please center the scoring ring. The score was changed to two Bravo, but I know for a fact that I or most experienced RO's would not have needed an overlay to score that paticular target. It felt like the RO was testing me???

3) I was the last shooter on stage and asked a target be pulled for the RM to score, knowing the RM was in our bay and it wouldn't take but a minute. When the RO pulled the target the first thing he did was lay it flat on a stack of targets. So much for keeping the target pristine. Then when the RM arrived the RO began explaining that most of my rounds were keyholing during the stage. I kindly asked him to just allow the RM to score the target, he didn't need any additional info or stage commentary.

4) I watched an RO lose his cool when a shooter, rather than unload and show clear, holstered his gun and started moving away from the RO. Result: reshoot for RO interference.

I guess my point is that this was the Nationals and I wish the little things were handled better. Maybe I'm spoiled hanging around some of the most rules knowledgeable people in this sport.

There, I'm through bitchin.

[Nik Habicht]

1) Start position: Toes on marks. I had my toes on the left side of "the marks" but still touching the marks. I was doing this because of a tight turn to the right after the start. The RO made me center my toes on the marks. I would have had no issue with this had he been the only RO for that stage and made every shooter do the same, but that was simply not the case.

Eh.....

2) Had two hits on a head shot with one being at the edge. The grease ring was damn near or touching the perf. The RO called Bravo-Mike. I immediately asked for an overlay, adding a reminder to please center the scoring ring. The score was changed to two Bravo, but I know for a fact that I or most experienced RO's would not have needed an overlay to score that paticular target. It felt like the RO was testing me???

Hard to know without seeing it -- but there's sometimes a phenomenon at club matches of "close enough, give it to the shooter." I never look down on anyone pulling out overlays -- it's part of doing the job correctly if RO or the shooter have any doubts...

3) I was the last shooter on stage and asked a target be pulled for the RM to score, knowing the RM was in our bay and it wouldn't take but a minute. When the RO pulled the target the first thing he did was lay it flat on a stack of targets. So much for keeping the target pristine. Then when the RM arrived the RO began explaining that most of my rounds were keyholing during the stage. I kindly asked him to just allow the RM to score the target, he didn't need any additional info or stage commentary.

Boz, Boz, Boz -- don't get between the stage staff and the RM. The RM will ignore the crap that's irrelevant. More important -- did the RO circle the disputed hole in the target, and did you and he both initial the target?

4) I watched an RO lose his cool when a shooter, rather than unload and show clear, holstered his gun and started moving away from the RO. Result: reshoot for RO interference.

Not cool...

[boz1911]

Locally, we don't have the "close enough" or tie goes to the runner policy. Had the RO pulled out an overlay to start with, I'd been ok with that, but to call a Mike without checking was not appropriate.

No, neither one of us signed the target. Good point.

[Seth]

I'm not there, so I won't comment on the calls... but after helping to put on 4 majors in the last 15 months, I will make but one comment....

The vast majority of the volunteer RO staff is doing the BEST that they can, they're doing it as consistently as they can, and they're not out to get anyone. We stand there shooter after shooter for HOURS watching the best and the worst come thru. The Prima Donnas, the professionals, the newbies, and everyone in between.

The range lawyers make the job oppressive sometimes and pure exhaustion might take some pep out of the step, but everyone is there to do the best job they can.

What I find inexcusable is an RO losing their temper.

EDIT: This isn't about your situation... only commenting on the difficulty of the job.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Seth

[bbbean]

2) Had two hits on a head shot with one being at the edge. The grease ring was damn near or touching the perf. The RO called Bravo-Mike. I immediately asked for an overlay, adding a reminder to please center the scoring ring. The score was changed to two Bravo, but I know for a fact that I or most experienced RO's would not have needed an overlay to score that paticular target. It felt like the RO was testing me???

Which was it - damn near or touching the perf? Sounds to me like the system worked. RO made a call, you questioned it, and after using the overlay the call was changed in your favor.

[boz1911]

2) Had two hits on a head shot with one being at the edge. The grease ring was damn near or touching the perf. The RO called Bravo-Mike. I immediately asked for an overlay, adding a reminder to please center the scoring ring. The score was changed to two Bravo, but I know for a fact that I or most experienced RO's would not have needed an overlay to score that paticular target. It felt like the RO was testing me???

Which was it - damn near or touching the perf? Sounds to me like the system worked. RO made a call, you questioned it, and after using the overlay the call was changed in your favor.

Yes, the system basically worked, however at the Nationals, you would have thought the RO would have pulled out an overlay without even the shooter requesting it.

Overall I thought the staff was great, and after working five A-6's in a row, I fully understand the hard work involved. That's the reason I never left a stage without shaking every RO's hand and extending my gratitude for their hard work.

[Seth]

Brian,

I didn't mean to suggest that you don't understand. Its just important to note that its basically a miserable, thankless job and even though you may be gracious and polite, the guy before you may have been a jerk and ruined a good mood.

S.

[bbbean]

Yes, the system basically worked, however at the Nationals, you would have thought the RO would have pulled out an overlay without even the shooter requesting it.

Overall I thought the staff was great, and after working five A-6's in a row, I fully understand the hard work involved. That's the reason I never left a stage without shaking every RO's hand and extending my gratitude for their hard work.

FWIW, I just re-read my post, and it sounded a little snarkier than I intended. I only meant to be a *little* snarky.

[Flexmoney]

Few understand that the grease ring with be inside the diameter of the circle in the overlay, and that any hole left in the cardboard from the bullet passing through will be smaller than the bullet that made the hole (the holes sucks down to a smaller diameter after the bullet squeaks through it).

There are plenty that don't realize that NROI gives us two overlays for a reason. The straight edge is need to locate, and indicate, the scoring line (cleanly).

When I am running shooters at a Major, I like to have my overlays right handy (no digging for them). It is just as quick and easy to have them at hand and use them, as it is to stand there and Mark-I eyeball the target with your Steve Austin bionic eye.

And, it is important for shooters to know the rules well too. so, they can ensure they get a proper score. Many a time I have pulled out the overlays for a hit that is close to the next higher scoring line...and the shooter will tell me how it's "not there"...but, it proves to be.

[CocoBolo]

Boz1911 - I'll agree that just about every stage was OCD on the start position, I didn't mind cause a 1/4" isn't going to be much difference if any. I felt confident that the OCD start position was imposed on all shooters and I considered it a good thing.

In the matter of shot calling I saw a couple shots called that I would have called the other way but those were very close calls. My general observation was they were tough on the calls and this seemed to be every stage and every shooter.

I have to say that I felt the officials at this match did a very good job and it was better than last years Nationals. Was it perfection, no and it never will be till we get computers to do it right?

[Strick]

Yes, the system basically worked, however at the Nationals, you would have thought the RO would have pulled out an overlay without even the shooter requesting it.

Since I am no as familiar with the rulebook as I need to be.........is it the job of the RO to pull out the overlay on any close hit or is it the responsibility of the shooter to call for an overlay if they fell the scoring is not accurate? If the former then how was that poor RO'ing and if the later it seems like the proper procedure was followed.

Also I am not clear what you meant by #4 in your original post.

[Gary Stevens]

Few understand that the grease ring with be inside the diameter of the circle in the overlay, and that any hole left in the cardboard from the bullet passing through will be smaller than the bullet that made the hole (the holes sucks down to a smaller diameter after the bullet squeaks through it).

There are plenty that don't realize that NROI gives us two overlays for a reason. The straight edge is need to locate, and indicate, the scoring line (cleanly).

When I am running shooters at a Major, I like to have my overlays right handy (no digging for them). It is just as quick and easy to have them at hand and use them, as it is to stand there and Mark-I eyeball the target with your Steve Austin bionic eye.

And, it is important for shooters to know the rules well too. so, they can ensure they get a proper score. Many a time I have pulled out the overlays for a hit that is close to the next higher scoring line...and the shooter will tell me how it's "not there"...but, it proves to be.

Just make sure you don't use a room key

[Pat Miles]

Yes, the system basically worked, however at the Nationals, you would have thought the RO would have pulled out an overlay without even the shooter requesting it.

Since I am no as familiar with the rulebook as I need to be.........is it the job of the RO to pull out the overlay on any close hit or is it the responsibility of the shooter to call for an overlay if they fell the scoring is not accurate? If the former then how was that poor RO'ing and if the later it seems like the proper procedure was followed.

Also I am not clear what you meant by #4 in your original post.

A good RO will pull out overlays if HE thinks there is a question about the hit. That being said most will make the call and move on. It is up to the shooter to ask for an overlay to be used and sometimes have to be insistent about it as some RO's take the questioning of their call as personal.

Regarding the OP's #4 comment, I am a little confused about the reshoot as the shooting was obviously finished and the RO was trying to determine that the gun was cleared correctly. I agree that he should have never lost his cool but a reshoot after the fact?

Pat

[AlamoShooter]

for #4 we are to figure that the RO must have said "Stop"! = that was why the re-shoot was required. But the real question was what was the intent of the shooter? was it to receive the required re-shoot? If so I would have had to make the call of Unsportsmanlike behavior rule #10.6.1 resulting in a DQ and the range master would have to be called.

the RO could have issued a warning of "!IF you walk away you could receive a DQ" ! But just because an RO Says STOP it does not automatically result in a re-shoot.

Stay Cool , use your head.

But I personally could not stay cool as an RO for a multi day match. The bad jamie would creep out .

I have the greatest admiration for the guys that run the matches and stages, They are better men than me.

[Jake Di Vita]

The vast majority of the volunteer RO staff is doing the BEST that they can

Too many people use the word "volunteer" as an excuse for poor working knowledge of their craft. I'd like to think most Nationals ROs take their job more serious than just being a volunteer.

[CHA-LEE]

Were these issues brought to the attention of the CRO of the stage or Range Master? People make mistakes, its part of life. All we can do is point out the mistakes to the correct people who can fix the issue and move on.

[larry cazes]

Brian,

I didn't mean to suggest that you don't understand. Its just important to note that its basically a miserable, thankless job and even though you may be gracious and polite, the guy before you may have been a jerk and ruined a good mood.

S.

Well said. I have spent years doing it, so I always cut the ROs some slack.

[Neomet]

What happened on #4 was that the shooter shot the COF, pulled the mag and while doing so saw a target that appeared to have a mike. He then started to move towards the target to engage it with the round still in the chamber. As the shooter moved to engage the RO shouted out "Hey!" causing the shooter to stop moving towards the target.

Reshoot after an inappropriate meltdown by the RO.

[Pat Miles]

What happened on #4 was that the shooter shot the COF, pulled the mag and while doing so saw a target that appeared to have a mike. He then started to move towards the target to engage it with the round still in the chamber. As the shooter moved to engage the RO shouted out "Hey!" causing the shooter to stop moving towards the target.

Reshoot after an inappropriate meltdown by the RO.

Okay, now I agree with the reshoot. Merry Christmas to that shooter.

Pat

[Seth]

Too many people use the word "volunteer" as an excuse for poor working knowledge of their craft. I'd like to think most Nationals ROs take their job more serious than just being a volunteer.

Is this an indictment of American society as a whole or are you aiming?

I'd like to think that a little patience with an RO is the appropriate course of action in nearly all circumstances. I don't believe that there are too many RO's with vendettas or devious intentions -- although I'm fairly certain that there are some course designers that hold grudges!

Everything about being an RO screams dedication to the sport... from having to foot the bill for the classes, to the donation of time and expenses. I don't care what level you're playing the game, these are the folks that keep the sport alive. Without them, you're just slingin' lead.

[tripwire]

for #4 we are to figure that the RO must have said "Stop"! = that was why the re-shoot was required. But the real question was what was the intent of the shooter? was it to receive the required re-shoot? If so I would have had to make the call of Unsportsmanlike behavior rule #10.6.1 resulting in a DQ and the range master would have to be called.

the RO could have issued a warning of "!IF you walk away you could receive a DQ" ! But just because an RO Says STOP it does not automatically result in a re-shoot.

Stay Cool , use your head.

I am new to the RO/USPSA game so my questions are to help me learn. I know if I was ROing and my shooter holsterd a hot gun and began to walk off my gut reaction would be to yell "STOP"! To me it seems like a safety issue. Is this an example of a RO loosing his cool? If the shooter did it on purpose to force a reshoot, that is another discussion. Is "If you walk away you could receive a DQ", a viable command? By the time I finished saying that the shooter could be half way out of the bay and out of my control.

I don't think it says explicitly in the rules that holstering a hot gun during a course of fire is a DQ, but I think walking off the line with a hot gun would fall under a safety issue.

Why does the RO calling stop automatically result in a reshoot for the shooter if he has already finished the course of fire (as signaled by holstering).

If this happened to me while I was ROing, what is the best call? (Sorry if this is spelled out in the rule book and I missed it)

Edit: As I was typing Neomet clarified the situation. Now I understand and agree on the reshoot call. But I guess my question could still stand as a what if scenario.

Edited October 14, 2010 by tripwire

[ima45dv8]

What happened on #4 was that the shooter shot the COF, pulled the mag and while doing so saw a target that appeared to have a mike. He then started to move towards the target to engage it with the round still in the chamber. As the shooter moved to engage the RO shouted out "Hey!" causing the shooter to stop moving towards the target.

Reshoot after an inappropriate meltdown by the RO.

So, the competitor didn't holster his gun before walking towards the target with the suspected Mike, as BOZ indicated?

4) I watched an RO lose his cool when a shooter, rather than unload and show clear, holstered his gun and started moving away from the RO. Result: reshoot for RO interference.

[Pat Miles]

for #4 we are to figure that the RO must have said "Stop"! = that was why the re-shoot was required. But the real question was what was the intent of the shooter? was it to receive the required re-shoot? If so I would have had to make the call of Unsportsmanlike behavior rule #10.6.1 resulting in a DQ and the range master would have to be called.

the RO could have issued a warning of "!IF you walk away you could receive a DQ" ! But just because an RO Says STOP it does not automatically result in a re-shoot.

Stay Cool , use your head.

I am new to the RO/USPSA game so my questions are to help me learn. I know if I was ROing and my shooter holsterd a hot gun and began to walk off my gut reaction would be to yell "STOP"! To me it seems like a safety issue. Is this an example of a RO loosing his cool? If the shooter did it on purpose to force a reshoot, that is another discussion. Is "If you walk away you could receive a DQ", a viable command? By the time I finished saying that the shooter could be half way out of the bay and out of my control.

I don't think it says explicitly in the rules that holstering a hot gun during a course of fire is a DQ, but I think walking off the line with a hot gun would fall under a safety issue.

Why does the RO calling stop automatically result in a reshoot for the shooter if he has already finished the course of fire (as signaled by holstering).

If this happened to me while I was ROing, what is the best call? (Sorry if this is spelled out in the rule book and I missed it)

Read post #18 for the explanation of the event. The shooter had not holstered his gun and was legal in his decision to shoot again. That is why at the unload and show clear the RO SHOULD state "if you are finished.... It is stated as a question so when the shooter unloads and shows clear he cannot claim that he was told to unload. The shooter made the decision that he was finished and cleared and holstered.

Pat

[Pat Miles]

What happened on #4 was that the shooter shot the COF, pulled the mag and while doing so saw a target that appeared to have a mike. He then started to move towards the target to engage it with the round still in the chamber. As the shooter moved to engage the RO shouted out "Hey!" causing the shooter to stop moving towards the target.

Reshoot after an inappropriate meltdown by the RO.

So, the competitor didn't holster his gun before walking towards the target with the suspected Mike, as BOZ indicated?

Not according to Neomets explanation.

Pat

[ima45dv8]

What happened on #4 was that the shooter shot the COF, pulled the mag and while doing so saw a target that appeared to have a mike. He then started to move towards the target to engage it with the round still in the chamber. As the shooter moved to engage the RO shouted out "Hey!" causing the shooter to stop moving towards the target.

Reshoot after an inappropriate meltdown by the RO.

So, the competitor didn't holster his gun before walking towards the target with the suspected Mike, as BOZ indicated?

Not according to Neomets explanation.

Pat

Thanks, Pat. But with all due respect, I wasn't asking you.

This is a salient point that's now being described two different ways by eye-witnesses. I want to know what they have to say.