Nationals rule knowledge

[boz1911]

Were these issues brought to the attention of the CRO of the stage or Range Master? People make mistakes, its part of life. All we can do is point out the mistakes to the correct people who can fix the issue and move on.

Yes, except the overlay/scoring issue, Like you guys, he wasn't there to see for himself.

[sperman]

Too many people use the word "volunteer" as an excuse for poor working knowledge of their craft. I'd like to think most Nationals ROs take their job more serious than just being a volunteer.

Is this an indictment of American society as a whole or are you aiming?

I'd like to think that a little patience with an RO is the appropriate course of action in nearly all circumstances. I don't believe that there are too many RO's with vendettas or devious intentions -- although I'm fairly certain that there are some course designers that hold grudges!

Everything about being an RO screams dedication to the sport... from having to foot the bill for the classes, to the donation of time and expenses. I don't care what level you're playing the game, these are the folks that keep the sport alive. Without them, you're just slingin' lead.

I don't think Jake is accusing anyone of having a vendetta or devious intentions.

I know that I've run across RO's that took the course back in 197-something, and haven't bothered to read the rulebook since. Just because they are volunteering doesn't mean they can't put a little effort into staying current on the rules and how they are applied.

Note: I'm not in Vegas this year, and I'm not indicting anyone in particular. But in my experience, there are guys like that out there.

[boz1911]

What happened on #4 was that the shooter shot the COF, pulled the mag and while doing so saw a target that appeared to have a mike. He then started to move towards the target to engage it with the round still in the chamber. As the shooter moved to engage the RO shouted out "Hey!" causing the shooter to stop moving towards the target.

Reshoot after an inappropriate meltdown by the RO.

So, the competitor didn't holster his gun before walking towards the target with the suspected Mike, as BOZ indicated?

4) I watched an RO lose his cool when a shooter, rather than unload and show clear, holstered his gun and started moving away from the RO. Result: reshoot for RO interference.

The gun was holstered as the shooter took several steps away and rearward from the RO. Had the gun not been holstered the RO would have been scrambling to get behind the shooter or at least yelled stop.

[Seth]

Too many people use the word "volunteer" as an excuse for poor working knowledge of their craft. I'd like to think most Nationals ROs take their job more serious than just being a volunteer.

Is this an indictment of American society as a whole or are you aiming?

I'd like to think that a little patience with an RO is the appropriate course of action in nearly all circumstances. I don't believe that there are too many RO's with vendettas or devious intentions -- although I'm fairly certain that there are some course designers that hold grudges!

Everything about being an RO screams dedication to the sport... from having to foot the bill for the classes, to the donation of time and expenses. I don't care what level you're playing the game, these are the folks that keep the sport alive. Without them, you're just slingin' lead.

I don't think Jake is accusing anyone of having a vendetta or devious intentions.

I know that I've run across RO's that took the course back in 197-something, and haven't bothered to read the rulebook since. Just because they are volunteering doesn't mean they can't put a little effort into staying current on the rules and how they are applied.

Note: I'm not in Vegas this year, and I'm not indicting anyone in particular. But in my experience, there are guys like that out there.

Fair point.

[gng4life]

for #4 we are to figure that the RO must have said "Stop"! = that was why the re-shoot was required. But the real question was what was the intent of the shooter? was it to receive the required re-shoot? If so I would have had to make the call of Unsportsmanlike behavior rule #10.6.1 resulting in a DQ and the range master would have to be called.

the RO could have issued a warning of "!IF you walk away you could receive a DQ" ! But just because an RO Says STOP it does not automatically result in a re-shoot.

Stay Cool , use your head.

I am new to the RO/USPSA game so my questions are to help me learn. I know if I was ROing and my shooter holsterd a hot gun and began to walk off my gut reaction would be to yell "STOP"! To me it seems like a safety issue. Is this an example of a RO loosing his cool? If the shooter did it on purpose to force a reshoot, that is another discussion. Is "If you walk away you could receive a DQ", a viable command? By the time I finished saying that the shooter could be half way out of the bay and out of my control.

I don't think it says explicitly in the rules that holstering a hot gun during a course of fire is a DQ, but I think walking off the line with a hot gun would fall under a safety issue.

Why does the RO calling stop automatically result in a reshoot for the shooter if he has already finished the course of fire (as signaled by holstering).

If this happened to me while I was ROing, what is the best call? (Sorry if this is spelled out in the rule book and I missed it)

Edit: As I was typing Neomet clarified the situation. Now I understand and agree on the reshoot call. But I guess my question could still stand as a what if scenario.

It depends on how he re-holstered it and what type of handgun it was. If he holstered it correctly and did not leave the CoF, he should be okay. Here are a couple of rules that could apply: Rule 8.2.5, "...a competitor may re-holster provided

this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded

or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1." and Rule 8.5.2, "If a competitor holsters a loaded handgun at any time during a course

of fire, it must be placed in the applicable handgun ready conditions

(see Section 8.1). Violations will be subject to match disqualification

(see Rule 10.5.11)."

[Corey]

What happened on #4 was that the shooter shot the COF, pulled the mag and while doing so saw a target that appeared to have a mike. He then started to move towards the target to engage it with the round still in the chamber. As the shooter moved to engage the RO shouted out "Hey!" causing the shooter to stop moving towards the target.

Reshoot after an inappropriate meltdown by the RO.

So, the competitor didn't holster his gun before walking towards the target with the suspected Mike, as BOZ indicated?

4) I watched an RO lose his cool when a shooter, rather than unload and show clear, holstered his gun and started moving away from the RO. Result: reshoot for RO interference.

The gun was holstered as the shooter took several steps away and rearward from the RO. Had the gun not been holstered the RO would have been scrambling to get behind the shooter or at least yelled stop.

So the shooter holstered a hot gun?

[boz1911]

What happened on #4 was that the shooter shot the COF, pulled the mag and while doing so saw a target that appeared to have a mike. He then started to move towards the target to engage it with the round still in the chamber. As the shooter moved to engage the RO shouted out "Hey!" causing the shooter to stop moving towards the target.

Reshoot after an inappropriate meltdown by the RO.

So, the competitor didn't holster his gun before walking towards the target with the suspected Mike, as BOZ indicated?

4) I watched an RO lose his cool when a shooter, rather than unload and show clear, holstered his gun and started moving away from the RO. Result: reshoot for RO interference.

The gun was holstered as the shooter took several steps away and rearward from the RO. Had the gun not been holstered the RO would have been scrambling to get behind the shooter or at least yelled stop.

So the shooter holstered a hot gun?

Yes, perfectly legal during a COF.

[Corey]

and why exactly would someone holster a hot gun during a COF?

[mgood]

and why exactly would someone holster a hot gun during a COF?

I wasn't there and don't pretend to know the details of the situation.

But as far as why someone would holster during COF, I haven't seen it, but have heard of stages that required someone to climb over something or carry something with two hands or do some other activity that needed two hands. They might holster, do whatever, then draw again.

[bbbean]

and why exactly would someone holster a hot gun during a COF?

I do it every time the RO says "Make Ready", don't you?

[Neomet]

Herein lies my problem with eyewitness testimony at trials. Boz and I saw the same thing, or at least watched the same stage. What Boz saw was that the shooter stopped shooting, holstered his hot gun and then took a couple steps back and away from the RO. What I saw was that the shooter shot the COF, pulled the mag as he was looking towards the target to his left and then started to move towards the target to engage it at which point the RO yelled "Hey!" and something else I didn't hear. The shooter stepped back, jacked the round out, showed the chamber, dropped the hammer, holstered quickly and started to walk away at which point the RO told him he needed to remain under his control at all times and made him come back and go through UASC again.

Two different people at the same event see two different things. It happens routinely. Either way though it was RO interference.

Boz, hope I got what you saw down right. Sorry if not.

[Corey]

and why exactly would someone holster a hot gun during a COF?

I do it every time the RO says "Make Ready", don't you?

not EVERY time, there are a few empty gun or table starts here and there

Edited October 14, 2010 by Corey

[Strick]

Kinda poses an interesting question in my mind. When is it considered interference? If a shooter drops his mag and then then the RO comes over and says "if you are done" and the shooter then decides to shoot something else is that interference (based loosely off what we are seeing in this thread)? What is the signal for the RO to step in and start giving unload commands?

[bbbean]

and why exactly would someone holster a hot gun during a COF?

I do it every time the RO says "Make Ready", don't you?

not EVERY time, there are a few empty gun or table starts here and there

Touche!

[spanky]

IMO if an RO shouts anything other than appropriate warning commands, they are interfering with the shooters attempt at the CoF.

[mhs]

Kinda poses an interesting question in my mind. When is it considered interference? If a shooter drops his mag and then then the RO comes over and says "if you are done" and the shooter then decides to shoot something else is that interference (based loosely off what we are seeing in this thread)? What is the signal for the RO to step in and start giving unload commands?

I generally wait until the shooter has stopped shooting, and is stationary. Lots of shooters go ahead and unload and show clear without prompting. If the RO waits until the competitor has stopped for several seconds, and gives only the official commmand, I don't see how it could be interference. I certainly see that yelling "Hey" could be interference.

[Chuck Anderson]

Had RO's make two calls today that I didn't agree with. One was assigning 6 procedurals to a shooter on my squad. Didn't think it was the right call but saw how he could make it. He didn't argue, just called the RM. RM agreed with the shooter and said one. The other one another shooter asked if he could thumb cock his DA/SA Production gun after the start signal and before firing the first shot. CRO, who also happens to be a RMI, said it was illegal, but then immediately dug out the rule book to look it up and called the RM (different than the first RM). CRO found out he was mistaken and made every effort to make it right inlcuding having the RM track down the squad that already shot when he told them no as well.

Everyone will make mistakes from time to time. RO's, shooters, RM's. The shooter needs to know the rules in order to make sure they are enforced appropriately. It's nice to say the Nationals RO's should be the best in the world, and in many ways they are. But you can get all the RMI's in a room and even they won't necessarily agree on every call.

[Flexmoney]

Everyone will make mistakes from time to time. RO's, shooters, RM's. The shooter needs to know the rules in order to make sure they are enforced appropriately. It's nice to say the Nationals RO's should be the best in the world, and in many ways they are. But you can get all the RMI's in a room and even they won't necessarily agree on every call.

+1

That says it as well as it's going to be said.

[Joe4d]

"if you are done unload and show clear"

When the shooter holds the slide open and tilts the chamber so I can see it he/she is done.

The command is a question,, If you are done do this, as soon as they do this they are done, dropping the mag, holstering, scratching butt, is not the this asked for in the question as an RO all you can do is continue to enforce safety and re ask "If you are done unload and show clear.

[gng4life]

"if you are done unload and show clear"

When the shooter holds the slide open and tilts the chamber so I can see it he/she is done.

The command is a question,, If you are done do this, as soon as they do this they are done, dropping the mag, holstering, scratching butt, is not the this asked for in the question as an RO all you can do is continue to enforce safety and re ask "If you are done unload and show clear.

The competitor is only prohibited from firing after the "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster" is issued...up to that point, they can still engage targets...Rule 8.3.7

[sperman]

I think we hurt ourselves as a sport by not letting the RO's compete. There are lots of great RO's out there that would rather shoot the nationals than work it.

[Nik Habicht]

2) Had two hits on a head shot with one being at the edge. The grease ring was damn near or touching the perf. The RO called Bravo-Mike. I immediately asked for an overlay, adding a reminder to please center the scoring ring. The score was changed to two Bravo, but I know for a fact that I or most experienced RO's would not have needed an overlay to score that paticular target. It felt like the RO was testing me???

Which was it - damn near or touching the perf? Sounds to me like the system worked. RO made a call, you questioned it, and after using the overlay the call was changed in your favor.

Yes, the system basically worked, however at the Nationals, you would have thought the RO would have pulled out an overlay without even the shooter requesting it.

It would be nice --- but if you expect that, then what happens when a different RO doesn't whip out an overlay during scoring? What if an RO forgets for one competitor? What price consistency?

Overall I thought the staff was great, and after working five A-6's in a row, I fully understand the hard work involved. That's the reason I never left a stage without shaking every RO's hand and extending my gratitude for their hard work.

And that's just one reason you're a class act!

[Nik Habicht]

and why exactly would someone holster a hot gun during a COF?

To run uprange? To tie a shoe? To manipulate a prop with two hands? I can think of a few reasons....

[Nik Habicht]

Kinda poses an interesting question in my mind. When is it considered interference? If a shooter drops his mag and then then the RO comes over and says "if you are done" and the shooter then decides to shoot something else is that interference (based loosely off what we are seeing in this thread)? What is the signal for the RO to step in and start giving unload commands?

Usually it's based off shooter action, or more accurately lack of action: Typically the gun is lowered, the shooter relaxes, you can see his/her focus change, and you've usually got a pretty good idea that they've either shot at all the targets, or blown right by one or more, without remembering that they were there...

Range commands or safety warnings -- not interference.

Other utterances -- "Hey," "Whoa," and/or "Stop" issued prior to the competitors completion of the course of fire may all result in a reshoot...

[Strick]

Kinda poses an interesting question in my mind. When is it considered interference? If a shooter drops his mag and then then the RO comes over and says "if you are done" and the shooter then decides to shoot something else is that interference (based loosely off what we are seeing in this thread)? What is the signal for the RO to step in and start giving unload commands?

Usually it's based off shooter action, or more accurately lack of action: Typically the gun is lowered, the shooter relaxes, you can see his/her focus change, and you've usually got a pretty good idea that they've either shot at all the targets, or blown right by one or more, without remembering that they were there...

Range commands or safety warnings -- not interference.

Other utterances -- "Hey," "Whoa," and/or "Stop" issued prior to the competitors completion of the course of fire may all result in a reshoot...

Shooter action or posture for lack of a better word is how I do it in IDPA (not a USPSA RO). I only asked because even though "hey", whoa", "hold up" aren't range commands if I saw a shooter relax, drop a mag, and/or holster up and start walking away I doubt I would be saying ULSC......ULSC. I would be saying "hey". I don't see how that could be construed as interference. If a shooter knew he had a terrible run that could be an interesting way to get a reshoot if it was.

******I am talking in general of course and not about this particular situation since I was not there. This just made me think a little.