Nationals rule knowledge

[mgood]

When I finish a stage, or think I am finished, I pause for a moment and scan for anything I overlooked. Sometimes my plan is to shoot x number of rounds here, reload, x number of rounds there, and so on, and I don't finish with the right number of rounds. I know there's something I was supposed to shoot but didn't. I have, twice now, dropped the mag about the time I spotted something I missed. In each case, I fired the round in the chamber SHO at that target. Once, the RO was in the middle of the command. "If you uh - " ^BANG! " . . . IF YOU ARE FINISHED, unload and show clear."

Yeah, I know that if it took me that long to find it, I probably didn't gain anything by shooting it. But as slow as my times are anyway, it probably didn't make much difference.

Edited October 15, 2010 by mgood

[G-ManBart]

I will only add that on one stage the RO stopped, looked at one of my targets, pulled out his overlays and called an Alpha that sounds a lot like the grease ring situation above. I would have asked for an overaly if he hadn't done that, but he was completely proactive. A few other times they stopped, and got very close and called the lower scoring, but I agreed in every case. I was pretty impressed with the ROs this year. R,

[George Jones]

Keep in mind that a number of ROs at the Nationals are relatively new. We need new ROs to volunteer and receive the "Nationals Experience". The number of shooters and situations they personally witness significantly add to the expertise they will take back to their home clubs - and to future Nationals where they may someday be CROs.

A good Nationals CRO understands that a big part of his job (beyond running a safe, efficient, and fair stage) is to observe and educate the others on that stage. I observe them do their job fairly closely, only stepping in when necessary, and discuss the finer points after the fact. How else do we develop the level of experience we will need in the future?

Give the new guys a break. They are usually doing the best they can. If they falter occasionally, the process (CRO.. RM.. etc) will work. The shooter only need to be a bit patient and remain calm, as well as polite.

[Sarge]

If they falter occasionally, the process (CRO.. RM.. etc) will work. The shooter only need to be a bit patient and remain calm, as well as polite.

Well said. I have been challenged a few times. Once it went to the shooter. Once it went to me. I wish every shooter that had a questionable call would ask for the CRO, etc... instead of wanting to argue about it to no end. I never take offense to being challenged. I do however, take offense to a shooter debating a call that me, him and everybody else looking at the target can clearly see what the score is.

[sperman]

I watched some of the nationals videos trying to find examples of improper range commands. I couldn't find a single one. I don't think I've shot a match this year where I wasn't told to "Load and make ready." or "slide forward."

Edited October 18, 2010 by sperman

[George Jones]

"slide forward."

Aaaaarrrgggghhhhh....!!!!!!

[sperman]

[bbbean]

[Corey]

I know what my evening plans are going to be now! haha

[juan]

Im going to do that move next time I hear slide forward.

I got to go dry fire this right now.

[sperman]

If I ever have the honor of RO'ing George, I'm going to have to give him that command just to see if he took the time to learn the dance move. I only hope someone catches it on video.

Edited October 18, 2010 by sperman

[boz1911]

Keep in mind that a number of ROs at the Nationals are relatively new. We need new ROs to volunteer and receive the "Nationals Experience". The number of shooters and situations they personally witness significantly add to the expertise they will take back to their home clubs - and to future Nationals where they may someday be CROs.

A good Nationals CRO understands that a big part of his job (beyond running a safe, efficient, and fair stage) is to observe and educate the others on that stage. I observe them do their job fairly closely, only stepping in when necessary, and discuss the finer points after the fact. How else do we develop the level of experience we will need in the future?

Give the new guys a break. They are usually doing the best they can. If they falter occasionally, the process (CRO.. RM.. etc) will work. The shooter only need to be a bit patient and remain calm, as well as polite.

I'm with ya' George, but in all four cases I referred to in post number one, these were either CRO's or very experienced RO's ie: I've seen them at previous Nationals.

[Chuck Anderson]

If I ever have the honor of RO'ing George, I'm going to have to give him that command just to see if he took the time to learn the dance move. I only hope someone catches it on video.

I have special Range Commands for my local RMI. Used to be Tom Chambers, but now I have Carl Schmidt to harass. "Shooter to the line, if you've read and understand the course of fire, well STOKE IT UP COWBOY!!!".

[LPatterson]

Kinda poses an interesting question in my mind. When is it considered interference? If a shooter drops his mag and then then the RO comes over and says "if you are done" and the shooter then decides to shoot something else is that interference (based loosely off what we are seeing in this thread)? What is the signal for the RO to step in and start giving unload commands?

The rule is 8.3.6 and the wording is "If you are finished, Unload and show clear." Until the shooter presents the gun to show clear they may reengage targets. Issuance of the command "If clear, hammer down, holster." would prohibit the shooter from another shot.

[High Lord Gomer]

I learned a lot from those events. I did have to go back and reread parts of the rulebook to see if things had been done correctly.

Herein lies my problem with eyewitness testimony at trials. Boz and I saw the same thing, or at least watched the same stage. What Boz saw was that the shooter stopped shooting, holstered his hot gun and then took a couple steps back and away from the RO. What I saw was that the shooter shot the COF, pulled the mag as he was looking towards the target to his left and then started to move towards the target to engage it at which point the RO yelled "Hey!" and something else I didn't hear. The shooter stepped back, jacked the round out, showed the chamber, dropped the hammer, holstered quickly and started to walk away at which point the RO told him he needed to remain under his control at all times and made him come back and go through UASC again.

Two different people at the same event see two different things. It happens routinely. Either way though it was RO interference.

Boz, hope I got what you saw down right. Sorry if not.

What I saw and heard was very close to what Rick saw and heard. The shooter appeared to be finished, stopped moving, and had the mag about halfway out when the RO came up to just behind/beside him and got all or at least part way through "If you are finished unload and show clear". At that point the shooter moved rather quickly to the left and back somewhat to go look at the far left rearmost target. The RO said either "Hey" and something else. I think it was "Hey, get back here." The shooter stopped, looked back at the RO and said, "I'm not finished", then moved a little farther to look at the target. He then came back to the RO and was told again, "If you are finished unload and show clear." The shooter did what apparently is his usual half-second ULASC followed by a quick reholster and started walking off. The RO then had him come back and do it again. They went around and scored the targets. After they were finished (I believe there were a couple misses and/or no shoots hit) the shooter asked for a reshoot due to interference. The CRO said No. Part of his justification was that they had already read the time out loud and scored the targets. An RM was called and a reshoot was granted.

Did he do that to try to get a reshoot? I don't read minds. I did see him do something very simlar on at least one other stage. The first time it was a terrible run, the second was a great time with all but 2 or 3 As. On that one the RO moved backward with him and didn't say anything else until the shooter obviously stopped and looked back at the RO at which point she said again, "If you are finished unload and show clear." It may be part of his normal process to replay the stage in his head and that is what caused him to leave to check a target.

What did I learn?

1. The first RO should have done exactly what the second one did. The shooter never left the shooting area and never did anything approaching unsafe.

2. The rulebook doesn't clearly address the situation where a shooter thinks they have been interfed with, just when the RO thinks they have interfered. If the RO offers a reshoot the competitor has to accept or decline before hearing the time and score.

8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.

I agree with the RM's decision. IMO, In the absence of clear direction from the rulebook, interference is grounds for a reshoot and a competitor should be able to request that if they think there was interference with their run. Is it worth adding this to the rulebook? I think so. I think I'll add the following to the thread for suggestions for the BOD meeting:

8.6.4.1 If a competitor believes that there was interference during the course of fire and the RO does not offer a reshoot, the competitior must request a reshoot prior to seeing the time or the score from the initial attempt.

Edited October 24, 2010 by High Lord Gomer

[wgnoyes]

If I ever have the honor of RO'ing George, I'm going to have to give him that command just to see if he took the time to learn the dance move. I only hope someone catches it on video.

I have special Range Commands for my local RMI. Used to be Tom Chambers, but now I have Carl Schmidt to harass. "Shooter to the line, if you've read and understand the course of fire, well STOKE IT UP COWBOY!!!".

I sitll like "stoke it, stroke it, flick it, stick it!"

[aztecdriver]

If I ever have the honor of RO'ing George, I'm going to have to give him that command just to see if he took the time to learn the dance move. I only hope someone catches it on video.

I have special Range Commands for my local RMI. Used to be Tom Chambers, but now I have Carl Schmidt to harass. "Shooter to the line, if you've read and understand the course of fire, well STOKE IT UP COWBOY!!!".

I sitll like "stoke it, stroke it, flick it, stick it!"

But it's so much work! I'd probably screw it up - i'll stick to two simple words.

[SteelDown]

My favorite MR command is "Fondle it and make it Hot."

[KermitShooter]

I have to add a local steel favorite, kick the tires and light the fire.

[davidwiz]

What I saw and heard was very close to what Rick saw and heard. The shooter appeared to be finished, stopped moving, and had the mag about halfway out when the RO came up to just behind/beside him and got all or at least part way through "If you are finished unload and show clear". At that point the shooter moved rather quickly to the left and back somewhat to go look at the far left rearmost target. The RO said either "Hey" and something else. I think it was "Hey, get back here." The shooter stopped, looked back at the RO and said, "I'm not finished", then moved a little farther to look at the target. He then came back to the RO and was told again, "If you are finished unload and show clear." The shooter did what apparently is his usual half-second ULASC followed by a quick reholster and started walking off. The RO then had him come back and do it again. They went around and scored the targets. After they were finished (I believe there were a couple misses and/or no shoots hit) the shooter asked for a reshoot due to interference. The CRO said No. Part of his justification was that they had already read the time out loud and scored the targets. An RM was called and a reshoot was granted.

If your description is accurate, why did the shooter wait until after the targets were scored before claiming interference? It seems that, from your description, the shooter, after seeing his hits, made a belated claim of interference.

[larry cazes]

What I saw and heard was very close to what Rick saw and heard. The shooter appeared to be finished, stopped moving, and had the mag about halfway out when the RO came up to just behind/beside him and got all or at least part way through "If you are finished unload and show clear". At that point the shooter moved rather quickly to the left and back somewhat to go look at the far left rearmost target. The RO said either "Hey" and something else. I think it was "Hey, get back here." The shooter stopped, looked back at the RO and said, "I'm not finished", then moved a little farther to look at the target. He then came back to the RO and was told again, "If you are finished unload and show clear." The shooter did what apparently is his usual half-second ULASC followed by a quick reholster and started walking off. The RO then had him come back and do it again. They went around and scored the targets. After they were finished (I believe there were a couple misses and/or no shoots hit) the shooter asked for a reshoot due to interference. The CRO said No. Part of his justification was that they had already read the time out loud and scored the targets. An RM was called and a reshoot was granted.

If your description is accurate, why did the shooter wait until after the targets were scored before claiming interference? It seems that, from your description, the shooter, after seeing his hits, made a belated claim of interference.

David, that is entirely possible but it doesn't make any difference in the call granting the reshoot.

[davidwiz]

What I saw and heard was very close to what Rick saw and heard. The shooter appeared to be finished, stopped moving, and had the mag about halfway out when the RO came up to just behind/beside him and got all or at least part way through "If you are finished unload and show clear". At that point the shooter moved rather quickly to the left and back somewhat to go look at the far left rearmost target. The RO said either "Hey" and something else. I think it was "Hey, get back here." The shooter stopped, looked back at the RO and said, "I'm not finished", then moved a little farther to look at the target. He then came back to the RO and was told again, "If you are finished unload and show clear." The shooter did what apparently is his usual half-second ULASC followed by a quick reholster and started walking off. The RO then had him come back and do it again. They went around and scored the targets. After they were finished (I believe there were a couple misses and/or no shoots hit) the shooter asked for a reshoot due to interference. The CRO said No. Part of his justification was that they had already read the time out loud and scored the targets. An RM was called and a reshoot was granted.

If your description is accurate, why did the shooter wait until after the targets were scored before claiming interference? It seems that, from your description, the shooter, after seeing his hits, made a belated claim of interference.

David, that is entirely possible but it doesn't make any difference in the call granting the reshoot.

This doesn't seem to square with 8.6.4:

In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.