US Nationals 2010

[mactiger]

My displeasure with the 2010 Open/L10 National does not lie with the volunteer help or stage staff/CRO's or RO….it lies with the USPSA paid staff.

{snip}

For a budget of about $220,000 (800 shooters x $275) I just did not see this great event. At shooter registration I received the same plastic bag of catalogs and decals that you get at every level II match…. a plastic name tag and white logo T-shirt.

{snip}

Many, including myself, question whether the expense, travel time and effort are worth the reward of an average USPSA National Handgun event.

I had a long response written about my experiences with those 'paid staff' last year, but good manners and Forum Guidelines prevent me from posting it here.

You know, there were exactly 8 "paid USPSA staff" people actually at the Nationals, and 4 of them were working media type things (Front Sight or SCSA or press releases) and were not involved with any of the organizational details for the match. Two of them worked their tails off making sure the sponsors got what they needed and making room and food arrangements for the awards ceremonies, plus a bunch of other details. One of the 4 media people also sold shirts, kinda, and the last one shot the matches. There are less than that number who work Nationals pre-production, dealing with slots and such. Those people don't squad the match, they merely publish the squad lists and then field calls because the people who actually did the squadding are at the match setting it up.

There were at least 78 other people working and they were all unpaid volunteers, including the match director.

You do the math.

I can't tell you why the results were delayed--I was busy working prizes and awards prior to the actual ceremony. I do know that's something we need to work on. The problem is not in people (whether they are paid or not) having time to do their tasks, the problem is not having enough time cushion between the actual end of the match and the awards ceremony. IMO, we need at least a half day to get organized and pull that off in a professional manner. For the LPR, we had less than 2 hours from the time the match was official to the time awards were scheduled to begin, and that just isn't enough time to do it right. I'd like to just line everybody up in order of finish in the hall and send them to the prize room, but the Orleans people would crap if we did that, considering the fire codes and all the other hoops you have to jump through there.

There is only one person who sets the entire match schedule. Talk to him about it.

If anybody wants to volunteer some of their expertise, and show us how to make improvements,raise your hand. I'd love to hear from you, privately, in an email. Merely telling us what is wrong doesn't cut it.

Troy

[Singlestack]

Merely telling us what is wrong doesn't cut it.

Troy

But if they say nothing, you don't know.

Just saying... I was not there.

[mactiger]

Merely telling us what is wrong doesn't cut it.

Troy

But if they say nothing, you don't know.

Just saying... I was not there.

No, I know, and so do a lot of other people interested in improving the entire Nationals experience. We do pay attention to those kind of things. I have my own ideas on how to fix some of it, but those may not be the best way to go, and I'm not averse to hearing about specific problems, especially if people have a solution to those problems. I should have said "griping about it on here doesn't cut it". Yeah, that's the ticket.

Troy

[aztecdriver]

{snip}Not all 800 shooters paid a match fee. Staff who worked one match were allowed to shoot the other for free. {snip}

Linda, Just to point out this *may* not be the case. I know I worked one and shot one - I still paid my entry fee for the limited match. There were other considerations that were expenses paid for those that worked and shot - I didn't leverage that though so I'm not sure of the details. I don't mind paying an entry fee for a nationals event considering the expense that was covered for me when I was staff.

Troy, I agree that there should be a way to make the process of the prize table run smoother. Organizing around 600+ people when you count shooters, staff, guests, etc is not the easiest task. I will talk with a couple of people and see if we can suggest a solution.

[mactiger]

{snip}Not all 800 shooters paid a match fee. Staff who worked one match were allowed to shoot the other for free. {snip}

Linda, Just to point out this *may* not be the case. I know I worked one and shot one - I still paid my entry fee for the limited match. There were other considerations that were expenses paid for those that worked and shot - I didn't leverage that though so I'm not sure of the details. I don't mind paying an entry fee for a nationals event considering the expense that was covered for me when I was staff.

Troy, I agree that there should be a way to make the process of the prize table run smoother. Organizing around 600+ people when you count shooters, staff, guests, etc is not the easiest task. I will talk with a couple of people and see if we can suggest a solution.

I can tell you unequivocally that it is definitely not the case. No staff shot the match for free. With the work-one, shoot-one option, you must have a paid slot to shoot one of the matches and work the other.

I'm looking forward to any suggestions you may have, Ken, and thanks for helping at this year's match.

Troy

[Chuck Anderson]

Also, sponsored shooters typically have their fee covered by a percentage of the merchandise that is donated to the prize table.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

This one is not true at the Nationals. Sponsors receive no consideration towards shooting at the Nationals. USPSA doesn't give slots, paid or partially paid even to sponsors who give us $20,000.00 worth of stuff.

The current schedule is the result of past complaints regarding the length of Nationals. You used to finish shooting then have to stick around till the next day for the Man on Man shoot off, awards and prize table. Members complained about the delay so now we're trying to stuff too much into too short of a time period. Anybody that has been to a Nationals could have told you two things, 1. awards don't start on time, ever and 2. with the LPR schedule it was going to be a late night. The alternative for most people would have been staying another day in Vegas. If anybody looked at the schedule and thought they would be done shooting at 6:00 PM and done with awards by 9:00 PM, I'm sorry but you really have no concept.

For those people that want the professional awards ceremony you should look to Bianchi Cup. It's the awards ceremony you're looking for. Everyone has to wear a suit, no suit no entry, catered dinner, professional PA, some nice door prizes, professional photography, it takes place the night after competition ends following a man on man shootoff in the morning. Neat ceremony. Two things with that. I was done shooting on Friday, had to wait around all day on Saturday with nothing to do, and the awards still went till after midnight on Saturday.

No schedule is going to make everyone happy with the Nationals. Too short a schedule and there will be delays. Too long and people have to wait around longer than absolutely necessary.

Talking crap about the "Paid" USPSA staff is uncalled for. I know how much work they did. Dave is still working on the Nationals. And the suggestion to throw more money at the Nationals is great, not sure how exactly you want to pay for it. Up the entry fee or you membership fee? Nationals does not run at a huge profit, oftentimes even a small loss. There is not additional money in the budget to hire the extra staff, and if there was I'm not sure what tasks you would have for them that our awesome volunteer crew didn't already do. Unless you think our volunteers were just lounging around throwing money at them would have made them work harder. Now admittedly that was true for McManus. I know he spent a good portion of the second match just lounging around not working, but that may have been on Doctor's orders.

[High Lord Gomer]

...Now admittedly that was true for McManus. I know he spent a good portion of the second match just lounging around not working, but that may have been on Doctor's orders.

What did he do? Did he fall out of a golf cart while heckling shooters?

[rgkeller]

What one can hope for at a USPSA Nationals are excellent stages, competent and attentive range staff and a good shooting site.

From accounts, this year's Nationals was a success.

Anyone who needs good banquets, memorable ceremonies and efficient non shooting administration to be satisfied will likely be disappointed.

[Chuck Anderson]

...Now admittedly that was true for McManus. I know he spent a good portion of the second match just lounging around not working, but that may have been on Doctor's orders.

What did he do? Did he fall out of a golf cart while heckling shooters?

I heard he had a ramp set up and was making staff lay on the ground to see how many he could jump his golf cart over.

[Flexmoney]

...Now admittedly that was true for McManus. I know he spent a good portion of the second match just lounging around not working, but that may have been on Doctor's orders.

What did he do? Did he fall out of a golf cart while heckling shooters?

I heard he had a ramp set up and was making staff lay on the ground to see how many he could jump his golf cart over.

Did he have them "spoon" ?

[High Lord Gomer]

Glad I wasn't on *that* staff!

[Flexmoney]

And the suggestion to throw more money at the Nationals is great, not sure how exactly you want to pay for it. Up the entry fee or you membership fee? Nationals does not run at a huge profit, oftentimes even a small loss. There is not additional money in the budget to hire the extra staff, and if there was I'm not sure what tasks you would have for them that our awesome volunteer crew didn't already do. Unless you think our volunteers were just lounging around throwing money at them would have made them work harder. Now admittedly that was true for McManus. I know he spent a good portion of the second match just lounging around not working, but that may have been on Doctor's orders.

IF there was additional resources for services...

Any job task is going to have X amount of man hours associated with it. The awards proceedings are a task that will need X amount of work done. Honestly, I'd like to see the range staff get the night off and just be able to attend the awards/gathering. Not only should they not have to do that "off range" work, that work could be done by a crew during the day...while the match is finishing up. Except, of course, the final results won't yet be available. But, the rest of it could be turn key...if there was a crew dedicated to setting it up.

So, that takes extra man hours. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch (TANSTAAFL). So, it will cost more resources. Be that volunteer or paid. (and, I know the staff realizes that, but maybe not all the readers here do)

----------------------

How to have the match make more money? Without raising the entry fee, the main way to increase revenue would be to add more shooters. This could also increase costs, to some extent. (ie, do you have to add an extra day of shooting, thus extra costs for another day of staffing?). But, the revenue driver for the match is the entry fee.

So, the question becomes, how do you get more shooters into the match? One big match for ALL of the divisions? Probably, but I don't think that is required. 20-25+ stages would be nice...but you have to have the range for that. How about the people that would come, but don't come for various reasons? Like slots/wait list, vacation and timing?

- Anytime the match is held in Sept., we lose all the juniors and all the teachers. Even if they could take the time off in the school year, they certainly can't take it off at the very beginning of the school year.

- Vacation: A lot of folks need to put in for vacation time...at least...by December. If the match dates/location aren't out by then...we lose these shooters.

- Slots: I know that shooters in my Section have declined to try to go to the Nationals because they didn't get a slot. Even if they are able to get on then waiting list...that is later in the year and they don't have the planning time (see vacation) to get it all together. I know a benefit if USPSA is the slot system. How about we tweak that and turn it into a coupon/certificate system instead?

- Open the enrollment. Plan for a higher capacity match. Get rid of the slot requirement and allow ANY USPSA/IPSC member to get in...nice and easy like.

How many more shooters would show up just with those things tweaked?

51 more shooters at $275 means and extra $14,000. An extra 102 shooters means and extra $28,000. Of course, TANSTAAFL...there are costs associate with that.

Wouldn't it be great is the USPSA Nationals was one of the biggest matches in the World? Shouldn't it be head and shoulders bigger than some of our (great) Area matches?

Can it be?

[mactiger]

Yeah, that's me: Knevel Boudreaux. I actually made it over a couple of skinny staffers, too, but they weren't spooning.

Actually, I missed the last day due to being thrown out of my golf cart and smacking my head.

Chuck has made some excellent points, and so has Mr. Keller.

For people complaining about what they got for a confirmation packet or picked up at registration, if we don't know your expectations, we can't fulfill them. Sponsors donate advertising material and expect that to be given to competitors. We do that. The souvenir t-shirt is just that, a souvenir. We can't give TechWear away, sorry.

The old way of doing Nationals is unfortunately a thing of the past, due to member pressure, as Chuck described. I remember suits and ties and a sit down dinner, all the next evening, after the man-on-man shootoffs in the morning. We can probably go back to that, if you want to stay an extra day and a half or so. It's all about time.

Troy

[lynn jones]

Yeah, that's me: Knevel Boudreaux. I actually made it over a couple of skinny staffers, too, but they weren't spooning.

Actually, I missed the last day due to being thrown out of my golf cart and smacking my head.

Chuck has made some excellent points, and so has Mr. Keller.

For people complaining about what they got for a confirmation packet or picked up at registration, if we don't know your expectations, we can't fulfill them. Sponsors donate advertising material and expect that to be given to competitors. We do that. The souvenir t-shirt is just that, a souvenir. We can't give TechWear away, sorry.

The old way of doing Nationals is unfortunately a thing of the past, due to member pressure, as Chuck described. I remember suits and ties and a sit down dinner, all the next evening, after the man-on-man shootoffs in the morning. We can probably go back to that, if you want to stay an extra day and a half or so. It's all about time.

Troy

next year troy gets a helmet and a short golf cart!

[driver8M3]

For people complaining about what they got for a confirmation packet

my main complaint about the confirmation packets was that it all could have been sent electronically. ok, maybe not everyone is online. but i'd wager that the vast majority is. the packets were sent in oversized evelopes at $1.05 each...x ~600 shooters. plus, think of the time spent by the staff that actually had to stuff those 600 envelopes...vs. making a few mouse clicks.

[yoshidaex]

Too much complaining.....

I'm happy/grateful I got a slot.

I'm happy/grateful I got to be squadded with everyone I wanted to be squadded with (took some planning but we made it happen).

I'm happy/grateful I made it to the match.

I'm happy/graetful I got to shoot all 18 stages.

I'm happy/grateful the match staff was helpful.

I'm happy/grateful I get to shoot in the good ole US of A!! (Japan has horrible gun laws)

I'm happy/grateful I made it back injury free (Sorry Troy. I had to put it in there )

Edited October 29, 2010 by yoshidaex

[ong45]

Give me 18 stages and timely scoring ( check on both )

I can do without the rest. When did you ever see a prize table that ran like a well oiled machine? anyway waiting around a bit gives me more time to chitchat.

I would like us to take better care of the volunteer staff, even if it costs me more to shoot.

[joecichlid]

The souvenir t-shirt is just that, a souvenir. We can't give TechWear away, sorry.

Troy

I wonder how well it would go over if offered as an additional shirt offered for sale? I really liked the black shirts from last year, this years blue ones didn't really grab me but if you offered a TehcWear type version of the match shirt with all the sponsors I would absolutly buy one of those. Just an idea.

Joe W.

[Kevin Spencer]

I agree the confirmation packet could be changed. I was not pleased with it. I would suggest a simple email & a postcard mailed. I don't see any reason to spend $1.05 plus the other associated costs with it. If sponsors wish to have to advertising material sent, then perhaps they need to pick up the cost associated with it. Once again, I believe an email would be better suited & still provide the advertisers with their wanted exposure. Plus saving a few trees.

The awards banquet has to change. Perhaps we need to learn from the golfers on how to put on an awards banquet? I don't know how they do it, but the few I have seen were very professional and well done.

With the prize table, I would suggest using text messaging and a large Plasma Screens. You could watch the list of names advancing and know when it is your turn.

[Chuck Anderson]

And the suggestion to throw more money at the Nationals is great, not sure how exactly you want to pay for it. Up the entry fee or you membership fee? Nationals does not run at a huge profit, oftentimes even a small loss. There is not additional money in the budget to hire the extra staff, and if there was I'm not sure what tasks you would have for them that our awesome volunteer crew didn't already do. Unless you think our volunteers were just lounging around throwing money at them would have made them work harder. Now admittedly that was true for McManus. I know he spent a good portion of the second match just lounging around not working, but that may have been on Doctor's orders.

IF there was additional resources for services...

Any job task is going to have X amount of man hours associated with it. The awards proceedings are a task that will need X amount of work done. Honestly, I'd like to see the range staff get the night off and just be able to attend the awards/gathering. Not only should they not have to do that "off range" work, that work could be done by a crew during the day...while the match is finishing up. Except, of course, the final results won't yet be available. But, the rest of it could be turn key...if there was a crew dedicated to setting it up.

So, that takes extra man hours. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch (TANSTAAFL). So, it will cost more resources. Be that volunteer or paid. (and, I know the staff realizes that, but maybe not all the readers here do)

----------------------

How to have the match make more money? Without raising the entry fee, the main way to increase revenue would be to add more shooters. This could also increase costs, to some extent. (ie, do you have to add an extra day of shooting, thus extra costs for another day of staffing?). But, the revenue driver for the match is the entry fee.

So, the question becomes, how do you get more shooters into the match? One big match for ALL of the divisions? Probably, but I don't think that is required. 20-25+ stages would be nice...but you have to have the range for that. How about the people that would come, but don't come for various reasons? Like slots/wait list, vacation and timing?

- Anytime the match is held in Sept., we lose all the juniors and all the teachers. Even if they could take the time off in the school year, they certainly can't take it off at the very beginning of the school year.

- Vacation: A lot of folks need to put in for vacation time...at least...by December. If the match dates/location aren't out by then...we lose these shooters.

- Slots: I know that shooters in my Section have declined to try to go to the Nationals because they didn't get a slot. Even if they are able to get on then waiting list...that is later in the year and they don't have the planning time (see vacation) to get it all together. I know a benefit if USPSA is the slot system. How about we tweak that and turn it into a coupon/certificate system instead?

- Open the enrollment. Plan for a higher capacity match. Get rid of the slot requirement and allow ANY USPSA/IPSC member to get in...nice and easy like.

How many more shooters would show up just with those things tweaked?

51 more shooters at $275 means and extra $14,000. An extra 102 shooters means and extra $28,000. Of course, TANSTAAFL...there are costs associate with that.

Wouldn't it be great is the USPSA Nationals was one of the biggest matches in the World? Shouldn't it be head and shoulders bigger than some of our (great) Area matches?

Can it be?

There is a hitch to this. It's only recently that our Nationals have been selling out. When they were in PASA and Bend it normally wasn't difficult to get a slot. Since moving to Vegas it's been filling up, but normally you can still walk on. Making the match bigger is a risk. If it doesn't fill, you may be out a lot more money. A gueranteed sellout it a lot easier to plan for than a match that won't fill and you have a make or break point entry wise. Not saying it can't be done. Like you pointed out though, there are additional costs and risks associated with planning for a larger event. If the Nationals continue to sell out maybe we can talk to the Pres and get him to expand it a bit.

I've been to a lot of Nationals, not as many as some people but a lot more than most. I still think this was the best by far. The prize table is still not what it was in the 90's and early 2000's, but it's a darn sight better than it was in 2005 (4th Production, no guns on the table, this year 8th and several left). The stages were awesome, difficult, interesting and visually appealing. There was some decent props, and some really neat ones. Most of the stages, even some of the short ones had multiple ways to solve the problem. I would like to have seen a couple more open targets, but I'd rather have this match than a completely open hoser match.

[sirveyr]

How about losing the prize table all together?

[dirty whiteboy]

How about losing the prize table all together?

cash payout, easy, people wouldn't even have to attend the banquet.

[Chuck Anderson]

Where exactly does that cash payout come from? Since Nationals is run pretty close to budget. Unless you think sponsors would rather just give us cash instead of their product. Good luck with that.

[Flexmoney]

There is a hitch to this. It's only recently that our Nationals have been selling out.

I am not sure I made my point very well. ...which was that there are hurdles in place now that limit participation.

[G-ManBart]

There is a hitch to this. It's only recently that our Nationals have been selling out.

I am not sure I made my point very well. ...which was that there are hurdles in place now that limit participation.

Yep, get the dates set in stone before the end of the year and bump the number of shooters. My squad averaged under 30min per stage and I recall on the one morning start, we put first rounds down range at exactly 8am, and were done by 10:30...add a shooter or two and we still would have been done pretty quickly. R,