Why will I be unhappy with a Para P16?

[ZoomZoom]

Plotting my return to USPSA shooting after a loooong break.

I realize it's "to each their own" but it's clear STI Edge is a pretty common go-to gun for Limited.

A Para P16 in .40 leaves me with some loot for a holster/rig and mags. 2K is what I have budgeted this fall and I'm a 1911 guy from way back and not really interested in other brand pistols.

I'm not looking to light the world on fire, just ease back into shooting USPSA. Will I be kicking myself that I didn't go with an STI sooner then later?

An option is a used STI with 4 tuned 140mm mags for 2K. But there goes the fall budget....

Thanks for the input in advance.

[pjb45]

Sure STI is probably the most popular platform for Limited (Open too). It is a good gun at a good price.

Para is a good gun at a good price too. If the gun fits your hand, shoots accurately for you and will save you money for other things - buy it and be happy.

But there may be other issues you want to consider: parts - cost of replacements and upgrades, gunsmiths - who does a good job, magazines - does Para offer an advantage, weight - does one have a better balance for you than the other.

In my very limited experience, it seems Para users eventually "upgrade" to a different platform.

How close are you to the Caspian office. If you can stop by there and talked with them. Caspian is another all steel gun. I suspect it is probably a good platform since TT won a few Championships with it and Matt McLearn shoots one.

Edited September 7, 2010 by pjb45

[Gary1911A1]

I hear you on the money issue. I use to shoot a Para P-16 and had to have work done to it for it to be what I wanted. I don't see anyone at my club shooting a Para anymore. Almost everyone shooting Limited seriously shoots a S_I of some sort or a Glock 35.

[bbbean]

There are lots of shooters who are happy as can be with their Paras. In my experience, though, most of them are kitchen table gunsmiths who have spent a lot of time, money, and effort tuning, repairing, and upgrading their guns. I also know a lot of people who've had bad experiences with Paras. Most of them bought what they thought was a match ready gun and discovered that Para QC is pretty spotty, and that Para's idea of match ready is different from a lot of people's ideas.

I'm in the second category. I bought a P16TJ thinking it was tricked out and ready to run and then spent the next year or so sending it back and forth between Para and a local gunsmith just to get it to feed reliably. I finally got it to run, but had discovered a much nicer gun in the meantime, so it's now my loaner/backup gun.

If I had it to do over again, I'd go to the classifieds here and buy one of the S*I or Caspian setups someone else has already tweaked, tested, and broken in. That'd be a much better use of your funds, and the extra dollars you'd pay on the front end would sure be better spent that the extra dollars you'll spend getting a P16 race ready and reliable.

BB

[ParaGunner]

I been shooting Para pistol in USPSA for the past 2 years and love them. I got my P-16 of Gunbroker for $600. It's a older one with a standard extractor and I did have work done to them , mostly done by me. I have around $1000 in it and love it. I see no need to change to another gun.

[chirpy]

I got a P-16 off of the Classifieds here from I guy I shoot with regularly. He has updated a few parts. The trigger leaves a bit to be desired but I will be working on that. He told me that it didn't like factory length ammo and I found this to be the case using WWB 165 gr. ammo. Loaded out to 1.2 and it runs 100%. I have 2 P-14's and they have been worked over but I love them also. That being said...if I could afford an STI of SV I woulod pick one up also.

FWIW

Richard

[steel1212]

I got a P-16 off of the Classifieds here from I guy I shoot with regularly. He has updated a few parts. The trigger leaves a bit to be desired but I will be working on that. He told me that it didn't like factory length ammo and I found this to be the case using WWB 165 gr. ammo. Loaded out to 1.2 and it runs 100%. I have 2 P-14's and they have been worked over but I love them also. That being said...if I could afford an STI of SV I woulod pick one up also.

FWIW

Richard

If you can find a PARA that everything has been replaced on they aren't bad guns. I just think a used STI eagle would be a better buy. To me the stock parts on a eagle are light years better than what is on a para. I had a newer para and nothing but issues with it. They may have changed since but it has left a bad taste in my mouth.

[Flatland Shooter]

My first Para was built from an aluminum gunsmith kit back when they first came out in the mid '80s. It was the first one at seen at a USPSA match in West Texas. (Several considered my competing with a 13 rd .45 ACP a form of cheating.)

Continued running and loving Paras up until several years ago. I bought a nice used open STI at a good price and been kicking myself ever since. Not for buying the STI, but for being so darn stubborn and waiting so long to get it right.

I still like Para's and have several in the safe, but that's where they will stay.

I'm too old now to do really good at this game, but I did see a nice improvement when I switched to STI.

The only difference I can really put my finger on is reloads. For years a "good" reload with a Para was 1.50 seconds or better. Maybe it the shape of the magazine, the size of the mag well opening, or some other ergonomic factor I don't recognize, but I've been able to do sub one second reloads in practice with the STI.

The stock STI grip was nice, but after a little bit of shaping by Jim Hart, the STI just feels better than any of my Paras ever did.

Just my two cents worth.

Bill

[Dave Campbell]

Remember, Its not the gun, its the operator.

A Para, with good sights and a trigger job, is a good gun.

I like my P-14,(got it in 1994) at 7 yards I'm still quicker on a draw, with it than any of the S_ I's that I have.

It fits my hand, If I could get better eyes, for longer shots, I would still be using it.

They are harder to sell, but I'd bet you could pick up a good used one, stay in your budget, and have a great time . I think the mags can be worked to hold 22, in a P-16.

[G-ManBart]

I'm not anti-Para, but it does seem that they have a disproportionately high number of issues to work through....maybe not always, but often. Just yesterday a guy I know from the local matches came over to me while I was practicing and asked if I had any ideas on how to get his Para running. I asked "when does it malfunction" and he said "when doesn't it jam?" and laughed. He said he's been working at it for a couple of months, with no luck. Yikes...that's got to be frustrating! On the flip side, there was a really good Limited M (close to GM) back in NM that ran a Para all the time, and it was very reliable, but he said he'd done a lot of work on them (had a couple). R,

[CocoBolo]

I don't know anything about a para, but my smith and I have had several conversations about them. In a nut shell he says the internal parts are not hardened correctly only the surface is hardened and they play out very quickly. The barrel fit is hit or miss. So that said with good internals and a properly fit match barrel the gun should be as good as any. At that point it might just be about how it feels in the hand and balances.

Edited September 8, 2010 by CocoBolo

[ZoomZoom]

The thing that pretty much seals the deal for can be summed up in a word, reliability.

I know how important it is for a gun to go bang and how frustrating it is at a match when they don't. Been there done that. Even the best can malfunction but I'm not going looking for trouble.

Now looking at a new Edge [as used ones don't grow on trees] and one of the tuned mag package deals. The stock mags will get me shooting with some $$ left over for a holster/rig, tuned mags will follow.

Thanks for the input folks.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I realize it's "to each their own" but it's clear STI Edge is a pretty common go-to gun for Limited.

A Para P16 in .40 leaves me with some loot for a holster/rig and mags. 2K is what I have budgeted this fall and I'm a 1911 guy from way back and not really interested in other brand pistols.

An option is a used STI with 4 tuned 140mm mags for 2K. But there goes the fall budget....

Another option is the EAA - I've never fired one, but have read great things about them,

and seen some excellent shooters who loved them in Limited. I think? they're cheaper than

an STI?

[pvhendrix]

Owning both Para's and S_I guns. I can honestly say that I've experienced the same type issues from both mfg. The Para had to have the factory barrel replaced as the locking lugs beat off the top of the factory barrel twice. With the S_I guns the lower lug broke off of the gun twice, so the barrels were replaced in both instances with Storm Lake barrels. No issue with either since. The Para has a higher capacity mag, though not significantly. The S_I mags are more readily available. I've had magazine issues from both mfg. in .40 cal, I consider the mag issues a wash. I have had all the internals replaced except the triggers in both guns, due to wanting a "custom" trigger jobs not failure related. I had the front sights replaced on both as I now need fiber-optics to see the sight at any speed (still prefer black just can't see them anymore). I've shot both,like both, and still own both, as well, as other mfgs.

I would look at budget as the decisive factor. I had the first Para in NC under a .45 top-end. I had friends "convience" me that I needed to go with S_I based guns, after I had Para's in .40 cal. I am not sorry that I own either. Strange... I obtained my current ranking in all Divisions with Glocks, except Single Stack. At present I shoot S_I products in all divisions and am happy with my choices.

Just my observations.

[chirpy]

Steel1212, I got my Para P16 for $450 with 5 mags (2 with Dawson +4-5 base pads), a S&A MSH mag well and a different front sight and other parts I'm not sure of so I think (LOL) I got a good deal. If I was to buy a used EDGE it would have to have been gone over by Dawson or some other smith already and I'm sure I couldn't beat the deal I got on the Para. STI and SV weren't around (Glock either, as a matter of fact) when I had my first Para P14 built from a frame kit. Yes, it did cost me almost as much as an STI/SV and if I was younger and just starting out I would shoot Production or SS until I saved enough for a STI/SV, probably a "fat free".

FWIW

Richard

[entropic]

I have a para and an STI both set up for limited. I use the para and prefer it, but that may just be because I like the weight (12oz heavier)

[Braxton1]

The two things that steered me away from Para is the weight and the fact that it is a cast frame gun.

Weight is self-explanatory, but the fact that it's a casting may need some 'splaining.

A cast gun comes out of the mold very close to its final size. When the machinist sets it up in the milling machine, he has a very tight window to establish the "datum point", which is the "zero" point from which all other machining operations are made. Depending on how close or how far out-of-spec the datum line is set, the gun can be completely perfect or completely off-kilter. Pin holes can be out-of-place or not parallel to each other. Frame rails can be crooked or not parallel.

On a forged gun, since you basically take a steel block and mill away anything that doesn't look like a gun, there is no sensitivity to where the datum point is. The machine establishes a zero point and just runs from there.

I have built a lot of guns off of Auto-Ordnance, Caspian, and Essex cast frames. Some of them were really great. The trigger jobs just seemed to fall into place. On some others, I couldn't get a decent trigger without a LOT of trial-and-error fitting.

I once had a Para come into the shop that was built by one of the very big "Name" gunsmiths. It was right when Limited Division started to take off during the early-90s. The trigger was nice out of the box. Fast-forward 2 or 3 thousand rounds and the trigger went to crap. We sent it back to "name" gunsmith a few times and he re-did the trigger. Same thing each time: great, then crap. He brought me the gun and when I was checking everything, I saw that only the left hammer hook was engaging the sear. I put a couple of pieces of long drill rod into the sear pin hole and the hammmer pin hole. It was OBVIOUS that those two pinholes were not parallel.

Much to the gunsmith's credit, he replaced the frame and made it right. I don't know if Para credited him for the frame, but I am sure that his time and hard-chroming was expensive enough done twice.

On production-line guns, this usually isn't much of a problem because tolerances are so liberal that most guns wouldn't be noticeably affected. But, since hard-core shooters want great triggers, outstanding accuracy, and total reliability, they'll notice things like this.

Edited September 8, 2010 by Braxton1

[Ray_Z]

I had a Para 16-40 and loved it. It never ever hiccuped once. With a little tweeking of the followers I could get an extra round or two in the mags over the svi or sti mags.

That being said, when the trend went to the polymer frames I traded it in on an edge. Absolutely no complaints. The edge feels different but better. The balance is different but better. Recoil is different but more controllable. Would I do it again? Yep!!

[jjanglin]

I do some Para's found out years ago while doing them for the Air Force team shooter LT Col Roger Sherman

that they wore the frame rails odd, so I started having them Cryo treated and the Para gun's Mr Sherman

shot worked out real well after the CRYO . If I could of gotten Para to give us parts at a decent price

Roger may not have switched to Sig.

If a shooter really wants to shoot a Para they can be done to be just as reliable as most other guns.

When I have to weld stuff to repair I allways have it CRYO'D.

Jim/Pa

Sailors

[larry cazes]

I started in this sport with a Para P14 in limited 10. Great gun for that division. I would feel comfortable with a P16 for limited as long as you have a supply of reliable mags, preferably STI for Para. I found the mags needed a lot of maintenance. Other than that it is a great platform to build on. I added a Dawson magwell and an Aftec extractor and it still runs reliably. Still have my P14 and it still gets shot quite a bit.

[ZoomZoom]

Well, my hand wringing over Para/STI looks to be in vain. My 53 year old eye are so bad that even a fiber front sight is a huge gloing blob. Perhaps I can now get all freaked out over which open gun to buy.

Thanks again and I'm sure this will be useful information for someone else.

[chirpy]

ZZ...check out green for the front sight. I have 63 year old eyes and green is sharp where red/orange fuzzes out.

FWIW

Richard

PS: I perfer the HiViz.

[ParaGunner]

Are you going to build a Para or STI open gun now?

[Merlin Orr]

Buy the Para and get Lasik

[Duane Thomas]

One time I was discussing the concept of using Para-Ordnance guns as platforms for custom builds with Bruce Gray, and Bruce commented, "They just don't have it." I said, "Okay, I'm quite willing to accept that, but what is this 'it' that they just don't have?" Bruce replied, "Fit. Finish. Metallurgy. They don't have it."

If you want to know what is, for most people, the best performing platform in any particular division, look at what most people are shooting. It really is that simple. Competition shooting, as far as the equipment goes, is a wonderful pressure cooker, and very much a matter of survival of the fittest. As they used to tell me in the Army, "Only the strong survive, the weak shall fall by the wayside." The vast majority of shooters in USPSA who want a double stack are not shooting Paras even though they cost less than the options they are choosing. This tells us something. Despite what some might think, we don't ENJOY throwing money at our guns if it's not necessary. If you could get the same level of performance for less money, most people would be running Paras. The fact that they aren't, even though the S_I costs more, again, tells us something.