New shooter + no holster + cold range = trouble?

[Wellison]

I would assume most ranges you guys are familiar with are "cold". The range I shot at today is making the transition to being a cold range. At today's IPSC match a couple of new shooters showed up with out holsters. They were allowed to shoot from the low ready position which was fine. But once while I was down range pasting targets I turned around to see the new shooter standing in the starter box with his weapon in his hand pointed in my general direction. Actually it was pointed at a spot on the ground about 25 or 30 feet away at my 10 o'clock. At first I was angry but he was flanked by both his dad and the RO. The weapon was not loaded and I decided against making him more nervous by shouting at him or the RO. After he shot the stage, removed the mag, showed empty and dropped the hammer, he followed the RO down range with the pistol in hand to witness his score. I watched his trigger finger and he dutifully kept it out of the trigger guard. Still I think it would have been best if he'd been required to keep his weapon in a range bag (he didn't have one) or a box or paper bag something until the range was cleared for him to shoot and then replaced the weapon after showing clear. I've not yet taken a RO/SO class so I'm not sure what the right procedure would be in the case of a holster-less shooter. I regret not saying something to the RO about it privately. Also it just occurs to me I should have offered my range bag for him to store his weapon between stages. I think I will send an email to the match director just so that next time there will be a plan.

How does your range handle new shooters with out holsters? Thanks.

-Will

edited to protect the innocent.

Edited August 15, 2010 by Wellison

[spanky]

No bag (or holster), no play.

[GrumpyOne]

Even when shooters start at the low ready position, after the COF, the weapon must be bagged. I might have let them get by with having them set it on a table, away from the line, with something over it (a shirt, hat, something), but to walk down range with it, no way. Bottom line, low ready start, weapon must be bagged.

[JimmyZip]

Yeah, I have never seen someone without a holster, not have a bag. Sounds like a recipe for uncomfortable shooting. Think I'd bump to another squad thank you very much.

[calishootr]

sorry, no holster no play around our ranges...hell talk to enuff people im sure they will pull out oftheir bags some gear for the fellow.

im with grumpy on this one, standin there in the box with a gun???? while people are re-setting a stage???? nut uh....not gonna happen, waaaaay too many varibles ALL BAD can happen with that one

we will let ya dig mags out of yer pockets(which in itself gets people turnin the wrong wayto fish a mag out of a back pocket) but will morethan likely insist you have some sort of holster to play...

only, and i stress only time i dont see holsters is at a local steel challenge match where .22's are allowed to play, BUT they are also brought tothe line in a case or bag and re-cased and or bagged atthe end ofthe runs

[entropic]

No bag (or holster), no play.

Exactly

[Pat Miles]

Somebody needs to have a serious talk with the RO. He should be walking the new shooter to the starting position and when everybody has returned from down range let the new shooter take the gun out of the bag all the while pointing it down range. Then have the shooter load and make ready. After the shooter is finished with the course of fire the RO should have the shooter unload, show clear, drop the hammer and then have the shooter bag the gun before the RO calls that the range is safe.

Hard to blame the new shooter but the RO and I would be having a come to Jesus meeting.

Pat

[Joe4d]

Was this an IPSC or USPSA match ?

There are no local rules at a USPSA match. A holster is a required piece of equipment.

"Thanks for your interest in our match see if you can borrow the required equipment so you can shoot today"

As a MD I would probably find someone who can help him ask around to find the gear,

As an RO I would do the same but would not start course of fire, If the MD knew about the situation I still wouldnt start the COF and tell the MD to find another RO, As a competitor I would try to loan the kid equipment first, bring up the situation to the MD second, ask for refund of match fee third.

[NoSteel]

Sounds like a good way to start a new shooter off towards developing a bad habit. It is now going to be future RO's responsibility to insure the shooter is not taking a sight picture when not allowed at future matches. It also puts the new shooter in a position where other competitors may think he is an unsafe individual when in fact they just don't know any different. This should not have been allowed to happen IMO.. Our game requires safety guidlines be followed without exception. I don't care if and RO has cleared a handgun, I still don't want it pointing at me while I'm downrange.

[BayouSlide]

For USPSA, no holster, no play: no "low ready" allowed. One less safety issue to worry about.

8.2.3 A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or

hold a handgun, loading device or ammunition after the “Standby”

command and before the “Start Signal” (except for unavoidable touching

with the lower arms).

Curtis

[jar]

How did he get his gun to the range without a holster or bag? I'm fine with bending the rules to allow a newbie to try out the game instead of sending him home, but not the safety rules. Gun comes out of bag at MR, and goes back in at IFCHDH.

[Wellison]

Thanks for your input. I've emailed the MD and explained what happened. To be clear the pistol was never pointed at me and this was not a USPSA or IPSC or any other affiliated match. It was really an informal match to introduce action shooting to the club and to work out some of the kinks of putting on a larger match. Other than what I've described I witnessed no unsafe behavior by any of the participants. I think it was just an oversight and an inexperienced RO. I know the MD and I'm sure it won't happen again.

So let me ask you. What do you think of loaner holsters? I can see the point that a match may not be the optimum place to teach a safe drawing technique. But if you send every new shooter that comes unprepared home ... well that's not very friendly is it?

-Will

[JFlowers]

Will,

You might want the MD to get in touch with Jack Suber (USPSA Coordinator for SC http://www.southcarolina-uspsa.org/) and Eddie Wagner/Boyd Mercer (run the Spartanburg Practical Shooting Association http://shootspsa.org/). They could help a new club put on a safe, fun, and well attended first match as well as answering questions about rules, fees, affiliations, dates without conflicts, etc.

If this club does start up an offical USPSA match, that will be the second new club in SC this summer! Our problem is becoming we have two clubs shooting now almst every Sat in the upstate Carolinas. Hard to decide sometimes where to shoot, oh what a wonderful problem to have!

[FranDoc]

So let me ask you. What do you think of loaner holsters? I can see the point that a match may not be the optimum place to teach a safe drawing technique. But if you send every new shooter that comes unprepared home ... well that's not very friendly is it?

And therein lies the quandry for the MD. USPSA is VERY clear on not starting with hand-on-weapon but, if a newbie comes with gun-in-towel, you really don't want to discourage him/her. I was screamed at by range nazi's at non-USPSA matches when I was brand new. My borrowed holster wasn't far enough behind the side seam on my jeans (that's where it positioned due to the belt loops). There was a major hissy fit about it while I was in line to register. I shot that first-ever match ... and never went back.

Better yet, be creative to help these folks. Find a table/chair/barrel. Load the gun & point down range. Show them how to pick the gun up carefully, emphasizing all the things we usually do with new shooters -- safety "on", finger OFF the trigger until the muzzle is down range, etc. Then put it in something secure at ULSC and carry it back uprange past the start point. We've done this with new shooters who aren't comfy yet with turn/draws -- gun is on the barrel, pointing down range. Shooter faces uprange, turns around THEN picks up the gun that's already pointing in the correct direction. No 180 calls.

If there are loaner holsters available, try it. Takes 30 seconds, worth a try, shows the new shooter what a good bunch of folks we are that we'll loan gear to help include a newbie. Most 1911 holsters will hold any 1911/"2011"; my XD holster holds lots of guns secure enough for LAMR (standing still), but probably not good enough to walk around the range all day with it (see above re: bag/box it @ ULSC).

I think that, if you go out of your way to be welcoming, inclusive and nurturing (to the point of having an experienced shooter personally mentor the new person through the whole match), it can only benefit the shooter, the club, and the sport overall.

[XD Niner]

I find it disappointing that nobody had a suitable holster to lend him. Maybe he had an unusual gun and no one had a spare holster that fit. I know it was his first match and that the match crew didn't want to turn him away but unless a holster could be found for him that's what should have occurred.

You said his dad was with him. If dad was an experienced USPSA shooter he should have known better. If not, and even if he was, what was he doing standing next to the kid who had a gun in his hand.

The RO's actions were inexcusable. Safety trumps everything else.

[2MoreChains]

I agree with the comments about having the shooter start with the gun sitting on a table or barrel. 8.2.3 says it all, and there are better ways to introduce a new shooter to the sport than risk something bad happening. Bag or case the gun after ULASC-HD.

[calishootr]

because ofthe influx of new shooters to our sport(a nice problem to have) the downside is that most if not all come ill prepared to shoot the match, either ill equipped(we help them out as best we can with borrowed gear) or they have seenthe youtube postings and think they can just come on out and blaze away willie nilly. my partner and I have started in our section here in Cali an Intro to USPSA style shooting where we go over the basics when it comes to USPSA shooting what gear??? how to wear it, range commands etc...and its been well received, only once did we have someone who took our class and said he wasnt coming outto shoot with us because in hos words ' we have too many rules'

maybe more clubs could take up somthing like this on their ranges??? we all know what its like to be a newbie at our first match, our class hopfully helps with that by giving the people a leg up on whatto expect at a USPSA event

[LocknLoad]

Here at our local club, even on Intro days they follow USPSA rules so noone develops bad habits and wonders why they get DQ'd on a different day for doing what they were allowed to do before. That being said, the group I shoot with is really helpful and don't hesitate to offer loaner gear, ammo if someone is short (as long as they aren't short every week ). One time, someone even loaned a gun when someone's went down during a league night. That being said, if someone shows up without a holster and noone can help, they would be invited to stay and watch, but they would be escorted to their car to put the gun away. Too easy for accidents to happen.

David Sayers

A69517

[Wellison]

Thanks for all the input. I've already traded emails with the RO and MD and they agreed with me that the situation never should have been allowed. I'll be meeting with the MD tomorrow night and we'll make a plan for next month. In the meantime (this Saturday) I'll shoot my first real USPSA match in Spartanburg.

-Will

[ArmdCtzn]

I run local matches, and one of the first things I learned was to bring extra gear and ammo for newbies.

I have a cheapy Uncle Mikes universal holster that I haven't yet found a pistol that doesn't fit it well enough

to get through the stages. It has a clip, so it even works with guys that don't even have a belt. I also have extra eye and ear protection that I carry to every match.