Should there be a "Pro" USPSA class?

[bonedaddy]

Ron, sandbagging master or paper gm.... hmmm.  You tell it like it is, that's one of the things that makes you a very cool guy.

      I think we should all just shoot for the pure joy of it and let the brass fall where it will.    

   If the Pros want a Pro class, maybe it should be left up to them.

"There must be some kinda way outta' here, said the joker to the thief". - Dylan

[Ron Ankeny]

Sam:

Those are labels that others might attach to you when we both know that you are neither one. My post would have had more meaning if I would have made the statements in the form of a question.

My point is that I think all of us, myself included, get too tied up in our philosophical debates when it really doesn't mean much in the long haul. Perhaps we also are too quick to judge and it's not our place to play judge and jury to begin with.

Sam, I really didn't mean to stick my nose in your business, I was just trying to show that we all run the risk of being labeled and the label might not even fit.

[bonedaddy]

as they say down under, no worries mate! - Sam

[talon]

I was using the phrase "compete with" to mean some chance of winning.  I guess it boils down to is it competition if there is no chance of winning ?

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Quote: from Nik Habicht on 12:42 pm on Mar. 11, 2002

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Quote: from talon on 1:43 pm on Mar. 11, 2002

What I'm trying to say is that a d class shooter can't compete with TGO.  There must be a class system if he is going to compete against others.

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I disagree.  The D Class shooter is constantly striving to improve.  So I'm sure is TGO.  The D shooter can look at his score as a percentage of TGO's score and see if he is making progress.  Is TGO widening the gap, or is the D shooter approaching C class and improving faster than the master is improving?  It may not be a competition for the match title yet, but the day is coming.  I'm pretty sure that the younger group of GM's weren't born that way ---- they had to improve faster than the Grand Masters to reach that level.

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[John Thompson]

[

I disagree.  The D Class shooter is constantly striving to improve.  So I'm sure is TGO.  The D shooter can look at his score as a percentage of TGO's score and see if he is making progress

That is exactly the fatal assumption I'm talking about.  Nik, you might look at your scores to see how you did or would have done compared to TGO because your a serious competitior but any D shooter I know, and most shooters under GM, look to see who they beat in their own class at least first.  Again assuming they even consider how they did to the TGO at all.  Even then this comparison can only be made a select few matches anyway.  I'd rather win my class at the nationals then have shot a higher percentage of TGO from the last time I competed with him in the same match.  I am at the point now that I try to win the local matches but even as a serious competitor I look to beat people within my skill range; anything else would be counterproductive to my shooting.

[Bruce]

I have never heard a "new guy" complain about getting his ass handed to him by someone better, nor one that was upset by someone else winning.  What I have heard, more than once, is a "new guy" didn't become a regular because of some of the attitudes in the group he / she shot with.  

Many here probably cannot remember the first time the shot an IPSC or IDPA match.  I can, because it wasn't all that long ago...after years and years of shooting stuff other than pistols.  Want the sport to grow?  Want the loot to grow?  If you are a regular talk to a newbie...I can guarantee you he / she is nervous.  

Sorry if this is a bit off topic.  

[Nik Habicht]

Talon, John,

These may be the incoherent ramblings of a newbie ---- but I'll stand by what I said.  I've been doing this just long enough to know that I am my own worst enemy and my own best friend in competition.  While I used TGO as an example, I really look at my score in relation to the the top finisher in whatever Division I'm shooting that day.  I shoot the same two matches every month, they're generally attended by the same Master class shooters and one GM, so I can get a sense of how I did that's fairly consistent from month to month.  So far, I really don't care how I did in C Class, I want to be in contention for a stage or two; then I want to be in contention to win the Division.  I realize that may take a little while --- but you gotta start somewhere.  

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that I don't care about the labels; it doesn't matter that I'm in C class, I'm not stressing over making B, I just want to find the targets and shoot them faster and more accurately today than I did at the last match.  Now that approach might suit my temperament ---- I don't think it's the right approach for everyone.  Hmmmm, I think I just thought of a rant about labels......

[Ron Ankeny]

Nik:

I here you. My problem is that at our local level I am winning most of the stages and most of the matches. I am a big frog in a very small pond. Therefore, I use my hit factors on classifiers and the classification system in general to see how I am doing on a larger scale. Does that make sense?

[Bret Heidkamp]

Wow.  I have to say this thread both longer and more interesting than I ever hoped for -

the first one I ever started here turned into a 6 'pager!  

[Nik Habicht]

Ron,

Absolutely!  I guess when I get there I'll be asking the Duane Thomas question: "O.K. What next?"  Until then, I'm chasing the big frogs.....

[Gil]

I have only been shooting IPSC for 3 months but I for one look immediatly to the overall to see where I place against the whole lot.  Being unclassified for a  while it just makes sense to me that I am competing against everyone and that is the way I like it.  I shoot against 2 or 3 gms in almost every match and lots of A and B shooters and a few Masters as well.  I know what my capabilities are and even though I'm not at the top of my game yet,  I will arrive soon.  

Pro class you say, HMMM  .  Deal me in,  if you think the level of competititon is high now,  wait till the money is on the table and do the very best you can,  One has got to realize the potential he or she has though,  and be willing to sacrifice to obtain those goals......should you choose to accept this mission.

[shred]

Lest we forget (since everybody here seems to be the competitive type), there are a lot of shooters that shoot for the fun of it, or to hang out with their friends and so on. They don't really practice and are pretty happy shooting at whatever level they're at. In the past two months I've shot two large matches with several folks like this in my squad. One example was a super-nice lady that was shooting D-Open-- got into it 'cause of the hubby and stuck with it for the people. I tried to show her a faster way to shoot a stage and she said "Naah, I'm just doing this for fun, I'll shoot it this way". She never plans to leave D-class and doesn't care. She likes to see where she stacks up against the rest of the D's, but starts at the bottom of the scoresheet and moves up until she hits her name.

Find some people like this. Talk to them. See what they want. They're the people running stats and RO-ing, and helping with setup and teardown every month. It's an eye-opener.

[MBneACP]

Hi all;

Sorry to be so long in logging in on this one. Just got back from four days in Ft. Lauderdale [yes...it was Spring Break] and the Mystery Writers of America Day at the range. Event was a spectacular success...we took 130 mystery writers, including folks like Jeremiah Healey and Nancy Pickard, to the range. Roughly 125 of them had never touched a gun. The morning after the shootout, at their full MWA breakfast, the chair asked how the writers [mostly very liberal] had liked the shooting...we got a long, spontanious standing ovation. These things work because a pretty incredible arrayof people give their time...Dave Thomas came down from Sedro [and worked his butt off!]; the staff of Taurus, including head guy Bob Morrison, worked the range all night; our 'regular" instructors included Lisa Munson, Gila Hayes, Walt Rauch [with Walt Rauch Jr., strangely enough] and special guest star Jim Cirillo, who rocked. Ken Jorgensen, Chris Edwards [like that M-18, dude!] and several others [who, I swear, will all get their due when I catch my breath] had the place really jumping...

Anyhow, back on thread...I would like to see a 1,000 person Nationals, and I think it's do-able. I'm of the "everybody comes; first come, first serve" school, make up for the mission count deficit by charging for classifications [that's a kerby Smith idea, BTW] and making membership in USPSA, either on an annual or a per-event basis, MANDATORY to shoot our matches. Of course, I represent NO ONE BUT MYSELF [and, arguably, my three parrots].

I said when I was running for Prez that prize tables were a disease...and they still are. IMO [and, again, MINE ALONE!!!!!] prize tables and our obsession with hi-caps have come close to collapsing the sport. I'm NOT running for Prez, now or ever again, so don't bother pelting me with "shooter welfare state" e-mails. Chuck Bradley's are always the most articulate, and he and I have argued this face to face for years [and, yes, we're still friends]. It's worth noting, as several people have, that we are the only shooting sport to not experience a surge of growth in recent years; parenthetically, we are also the only shooting sport to pummel our sponsors to death year after year.

That said, I'd love to see a "pro" class of some sort, with higher match fees and cash pay-outs for a couple of reasons. I sort of like the structure used in running races...elite or "citizen." Citizen runners might pay $30 entry fee; elites, the folks who get the bucks, might pay $200. With a pro tier, it gives the ultra-competitive shooters something to aim for. All those guys grousing about shooter welfare states get to cowboy up, if they're good enough. Meanwhile, it protects the OSS (Ordinary Standard Shooter, to use Tom Campbell's terminology), because since there's no prize table [prizes by lottery, just like the other, more successful, shooting sports], the primary drivers for sandbagging and "shaving" the rules--greed and a willingness to cheat your friends--are strongly de-emphasized. We might even start attracting high end sponsors back to the sport!

Of course, THAT'S ONLY MY OPINION, AND I COULD BE WRONG!!!!!!

MB

[John Thompson]

Shred,

80% of the shooters at my club feel the same way as that lady you refered to some extent or another.

[Duane Thomas]

"Will taking the prize table out of the picture take the away the incentive for grandbagging( one of the solutions in search of a problem)? probably"

Don't you mean sandbagging? All grandbaggers ensure is that they'll be at the bottom of their new class, and therefore unable to win anything, more often than anyone else. It's the sandbaggers who manipulate the system for match/class wins.

[John Thompson]

Duane,

You are correct, I must have made a Freudian slip.

[TGO]

The classification system does not work and never has. Stagnation in ones ability is based around fading desire to progress. All will run up against a wall and stop getting better, but trying to have a golden parachute like the classification system to fall back on to sooth the ego is of little real value. It has value on the local level but no higher than that. When learning it is good to have goals to reach for. The truth though is that stepping up the ladder of the classification system is not a very worthwhile goal. It is an achievement to to win your class, but that should never be the goal. The goal is and always has been to shoot your absolute best everytime you compete, and to be better the next time. All the rest will take care of itself. Winning is not the goal. Placement is not the goal. Performance is the goal. Good perfromance rewards with good placement and sometimes winning. When big daddy and I unknowingly started this search for fulfillment in the shooting world, never was there talk of winning or loosing. We never spoke of beating each other or anyone else. We just wanted to shoot as well as we could. We seldom found ourselves trying to put a whoopin' on the other one, and others never could understand that. Brian has never let our match performances be more important than our friendship. This has been the reason 23 years later he can still stand me. I was never happier for another shooter than when I was running around Bianchi that year borrowing ammo from anyone who had any so he could shoot those 505 plates. I always wanted to win, but not at all costs. I did not want to have a class that would allow me to win if I was not shooting the best. I also never shot for the prize money because there is very little. I would not think that too many shooters would think it sensible to go to a match to win 100 bucks a good deal if they spent a thousand to get there! Shoot because you want to, not for stinkin' prizes. My son shot his first quasi IPSC match just recently and I could not have been more proud of him than I am. He finished 108 out of 148. He cared about who he beat and who beat him, not where he placed in his class. Then he wanted to go out and practice. If you want to reclassify a couple of us so you make room for a new winner, do so. Just have the match so those of us that still want to shoot can. An amateur nationals is a great idea if you can figure out an equitable way to sort everyone out. You can't do it fairly so just make something up and go with it. Still won't change the fact that most shoot 'cause its fun and do not care about the prizes. Wow, that was long!

Rob

[Steve Moneypenny]

TGO congrats to the youngster, to everyone else... OMG, think of the possibilities.. anyone want to buy a good ipsc rig :-)

i think that post summed up the way a LOT of people feel. yeah, i like shooting well, and i know what its like to constantly be beat down by someone better.... its called incentive, those who have the intestinal fortutide to go forth and compete under those circumstances can't be hung up on winning. i let shooting get too serious, let being defeated get to me.... but its not all about that.. i learned to have fun... i still don't want to lose, but its no big deal, i like a challenge.

[BSeevers]

Gee 6 pages I'll have to join in. Course I read it over the course of 2 hours and forgot most my points :-)

Couple points that stuck out. The Rob's Jerry's and Todd's are definitley a head above everyone else but so is Tiger Woods and his band of brothers. There is a Sub Pro golf tour that is as big as the real one. All earned their way and deserve respect. If you have set foot on the path they are on you know somewhat of what it takes.

The seperate list or class of Pro shooters is like the current class system. Very hard to maintain. Adam Poppewell, Matt Mclaren, list goes on, so see how you forgot these guys although any could win an Area or Nats. ( side moral of story # of good shooters has went WAY up)

When I shoot the Nationals I get a feeling I am there to compete against the best. I think a 1000 person Nats is a good idea. The best will still be there. (Mike, run for Prez again, you are level headed and intelligent, I might vote for you this time)

I don't think anyone on the forum has "class" envy but we must guard against putting policies in effect so "John pro or good Smith" doesn't win anymore. I have been shooting a long time and at a lot of places and have seen the worst in people. People will cheat to win or keep others from winning.

As for shooting for fun or not keeping score. If you look at the match final results to see where you placed then you care about it. If not then let's never keep score. Please we all are competing at some level. I had a lower class shooter beat me on a stage last year and you should have seen him shine. Made me remember the first time I beat the local hotshot. I felt good for him but I'll never let him do it again :-)

We just need to keep it all in perspective. I have been dead last and have won quite a few matches. Never thought winning sucks. I shoot for my reasons and you for yours. This is and never will be a sport for the common folk. What I mean is it takes a certain type person to do this. I call them competitors or doers. That's why 50,000 of us shoot on Sun. There are MILLIONS sitting on the couch watching NASCAR. They will never be with us. There are probably another 100,000 out there somewhere, that would make great Practical Shooters.

"Pro" class we already got. Its called GM. Don't forget, to use PGA example again, there are more golfers you don't know on the circuit then the Tiger/Jerry Barnhart's you do. There can only be one best of the best. I strive for perfection and when I achieve it, I will be there.

[TGO]

Me Too.

Rob

[talon]

TGO, thank you, I was starting down the wrong path.  I had begun wanting to win then I read

quote "Winning is not the goal. Placement is not the goal. Performance is the goal. Good perfromance rewards with good placement and sometimes winning. "

end quote

Again, thank you.

[davecutts]

Performance vs. placement

hmmm I wish the a$$holes who bitch (over really stupid stuuf) at matches would read that.

[benos]

Rob,

Thanks for that great post. (Which means - I'm right with you.

be

[EricW]

I hate the class system just because I'm embarassed by being rewarded for my mediocrity.  I go to match, shoot like crap, and I get a prize for it.  How does that work?  Call the class system for what it is:  Socialism!  "We're all equal.  We're all winners."  

No we're not.  I lost.  So, why in the hell am I getting a ribbon for it?  It's ridiculous!  Even in grammar school there was only one winner of the spelling bee...

Thanks Rob!

E

[Patrick Sweeney]

I just realised that our club hasn't posted class results for years.  We list the overall.  We list the equipment divisions.  And we show what class people are in, in the overall, but don't break it down and don't point out "so and so won B."

Hmm.  Ahead of the wave again.