Sweeping

[Flexmoney]

After the "Make ready" command [eta: and after holstering] a competitor reaches below his/her holster and picks up on the holster allowing his/her fingers to be in front of the muzzle (i.e.: sweeping themselves). Has this competitor violated any unsafe gun handling rules? Rule 10.5.5.1 only mentions lower extremities below the belt.

What do you think?

[LT45]

The pistol is considered safe or inert while holstered.

Since the competitor is not actually gripping or handling the pistol, he can not be charged with sweeping.

[h2osport]

I assume you are talking about while the shooter is reholstering his hot gun. At our club we treat this as sweeping yourself, and therefore DQ. I am not an RO, nor do I play one on TV

Randy

[Flexmoney]

The pistol is considered safe or inert while holstered.

Since the competitor is not actually gripping or handling the pistol, he can not be charged with sweeping.

That is a good answer. Can you cite a rule to go with?

[Chris Keen]

I can't think of a more dangerous thing a competitor can do with his "safe or inert" holstered gun. We certainly can't let shooters sweep themselves just because the gun is in the holster, can we?

[coldchar]

Not familiar with the inert rule during the course of fire. Pretty common sweep from my experience. I tend to give a warning on the first offense even though it should be a DQ for unsafe gun handling.

Jim G

[Flexmoney]

I assume you are talking about while the shooter is reholstering his hot gun. At our club we treat this as sweeping yourself, and therefore DQ. I am not an RO, nor do I play one on TV

Randy

In this instance, the shooter has holstered the gun. They then go to adjust their gear, by cupping the bottom of the holster (directly in front of the muzzle).

[paraman1]

So its a Hot weapon correct ?

[TwoShot]

Agree with LT45, the gun is considered "safe" in the holster so no foul.

[spanky]

10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping).

I'd also question if it is even sweeping since the definition of sweeping in the rule book states "pointing the muzzle ..." Obviously no "pointing" was done if it was in the holster.

[LT45]

NROI gives this as the correct answer November 11, 2009

Although watching someone grab the bottom of their holster with the loaded gun in there does not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling, it's not a violation either. The handgun while in the holster attached to a belt and on the competitor is considered inert, meaning completely inactive.

The same as crawling through a tunnel with the handgun loaded and holstered, the trigger is covered and the handgun cannot act without drawing it. I do think it may deserve some counseling as an unnecessary technique, along with someone having their hand over the ejection port while unloading and showing clear.

[SLM]

Wasn't there a discussion on this not too long ago or am I remembering something else? I know I remember reading the quote LT45 posted.

[mactiger]

It was the Hot Topic in November, 2009:

LT45 quoted it, but here it is again:

Safe or Sorry?

QUESTION

After the "Make ready" command a competitor reaches below his/her holster and picks up on the holster allowing his/her fingers to be in front of the muzzle (i.e.: sweeping themselves). Has this competitor violated any unsafe gun handling rules? Rule 10.5.5.1 only mentions lower extremities below the belt.

What do you think? Answer will be posted soon, so chime in with your thoughts!

UPDATE -- ANSWER

Although watching someone grab the bottom of their holster with the loaded gun in there does not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling, it's not a violation either. The handgun while in the holster attached to a belt and on the competitor is considered inert, meaning completely inactive.

The same as crawling through a tunnel with the handgun loaded and holstered, the trigger is covered and the handgun cannot act without drawing it. I do think it may deserve some counseling as an unnecessary technique, along with someone having their hand over the ejection port while unloading and showing clear.

Thanks to all of you who played along! We'll get another question up soon.

[mhs]

Someone asked me the same question very recently, and I said that it could not be unsafe gun handling, since the corrections to the rules give the following definition:

"Handling (as in “handling a firearm”) The act of manipulating, holding or gripping a

firearm while the trigger is functionally accessible."

If the gun was legally holstered, it wasn't handled.

I still have trouble reconciling this with the DQ for taking your belt and holster (with gun) off when not in a safe area.

[twodownzero]

I can't think of a more dangerous thing a competitor can do with his "safe or inert" holstered gun. We certainly can't let shooters sweep themselves just because the gun is in the holster, can we?

I agree. The rule should be clarified and this should be a DQ.

[staudacher]

I can't think of a more dangerous thing a competitor can do with his "safe or inert" holstered gun. We certainly can't let shooters sweep themselves just because the gun is in the holster, can we?

I agree. The rule should be clarified and this should be a DQ.

If that is a DQ then you will have to DQ just about every Single stack and production shooter since they have their fingers under the muzzle when starting a stage with hands relaxed at sides.

[Sarge]

I can't think of a more dangerous thing a competitor can do with his "safe or inert" holstered gun. We certainly can't let shooters sweep themselves just because the gun is in the holster, can we?

I agree. The rule should be clarified and this should be a DQ.

If that is a DQ then you will have to DQ just about every Single stack and production shooter since they have their fingers under the muzzle when starting a stage with hands relaxed at sides.

Exactly what I was thinking, as my hands hang below my muzzle in a DOH.

[pvhendrix]

Using the same logic...any shooter that shoots a race holster worn in an appendix carry is DQ'able, as when they walk the muzzle sweeps the inside of their opposite thigh.

Should NOT be a DQ as is currently written, in my opinion and interpetation.

Edited July 26, 2010 by pvhendrix

[staudacher]

I can't think of a more dangerous thing a competitor can do with his "safe or inert" holstered gun. We certainly can't let shooters sweep themselves just because the gun is in the holster, can we?

Chris, what exactly is that makes this dangerous in your mind??

[twodownzero]

I can't think of a more dangerous thing a competitor can do with his "safe or inert" holstered gun. We certainly can't let shooters sweep themselves just because the gun is in the holster, can we?

I agree. The rule should be clarified and this should be a DQ.

If that is a DQ then you will have to DQ just about every Single stack and production shooter since they have their fingers under the muzzle when starting a stage with hands relaxed at sides.

I never said it wouldn't be potentially problematic to write the rules that way. In my opinion, there's a substantial distinction between someone whose hands relaxed at sides happen to sweep their fingers and intentionally putting one's hands under the muzzle of the loaded gun in order to pull up one's pants.

[xsniper]

Using the same logic...any shooter that shoots a race holster worn in an appendix carry is DQ'able, as when they walk the muzzle sweeps the inside of their opposite thigh.

Should NOT be a DQ as is currently written, in my opinion and interpetation.

This was also my thought (I'm not an RO). But if i bent my right leg to scratch my ankle, my muzzle would be pointed at my lower leg

[ac4wordplay]

The pistol is considered safe or inert while holstered.

Since the competitor is not actually gripping or handling the pistol, he can not be charged with sweeping.

For discussion purposes (I have no intention of being argumentative), how do readers feel about:

Picture a multi-gun stage, where the competitor goes prone (with long gun) on an elevated prop and the holstered and loaded handgun's muzzle is directly "pointed" (not manually/intentionally, but as a result of the competitor's prone position) at the gallery (including you, your spouse/child, etc.). (No comments of "poor stage design", please.)

Are the two examples functionally (and regarding the rulebook) the same? If not, what are the differences between the two examples?

Thanks,

ac

[Skydiver]

For discussion purposes (I have no intention of being argumentative), how do readers feel about:

Picture a multi-gun stage, where the competitor goes prone (with long gun) on an elevated prop and the holstered and loaded handgun's muzzle is directly "pointed" (not manually/intentionally, but as a result of the competitor's prone position) at the gallery (including you, your spouse/child, etc.). (No comments of "poor stage design", please.)

Are the two examples functionally (and regarding the rulebook) the same? If not, what are the differences between the two examples?

Thanks,

ac

I don't see a problem here. It's just like a shooter going through a Cooper tunnel with a holstered hot weapon. The problem only arises if the shooter draws the handgun while in the tunnel (or the gun falls out of the holster).

[Flexmoney]

Using the same logic...any shooter that shoots a race holster worn in an appendix carry is DQ'able, as when they walk the muzzle sweeps the inside of their opposite thigh.

Should NOT be a DQ as is currently written, in my opinion and interpetation.

This was also my thought (I'm not an RO). But if i bent my right leg to scratch my ankle, my muzzle would be pointed at my lower leg

Read the rule (or the opening post).

Lower extremities are specifically excluded. (and lower, only)

[SA Friday]

since the corrections to the rules give the following definition:

"Handling (as in “handling a firearm”) The act of manipulating, holding or gripping a

firearm while the trigger is functionally accessible."

This is what I was looking up, but mhs beat me to it.