Full Auto

[TMC]

At a local non-USPSA match last week a competitors Glock went full auto after a reload and pressing the slide stop. The shooter was shooting through a barrel and when the gun went off the competitor pulled back allowing the 10 rounds to strike the ground about 10 feet in front and strafe out to the berm.

The MD and RO were conferring on how to handle the situation saying the gun was DQ'ed but not the competitor. I butted in saying you cannot DQ a gun only declare it unsafe. I said the competitor did not control the gun and keep it on target so he should be DQ's for an AD/unsafe gun handling. I added, had the shooter kept the gun on target he could have been stopped and the stage scored from that point. Then the gun declared unsafe and the shooter given a chance to fix it or find another gun and continue the match. The shooter was DQ'd.

Has anyone else dealt with full auto?

[Flexmoney]

The shooter was shooting through a barrel and when the gun went off the competitor pulled back allowing the 10 rounds to strike the ground about 10 feet in front and strafe out to the berm.

I said the competitor did not control the gun

Those two statements appear to be in conflict?

[Matt Cheely]

Didn't shoot the prop, within a meter of his feet, and rounds didn't leave the range. I'd say the gun is unsafe, but the competitor shouldn't be DQ'd.

[driver8M3]

is it the general rule at these non-uspsa matches that uspsa rules are in play?

[VegasOPM]

Per USPSA rules he shouldn't have been DQ'd. I have no idea what the "non-USPSA" rules are.

[bbbean]

If the rounds went down range and not over the berm, I'd say the shooter kept things safe. Bag the gun as unsafe per 5.1.6.

[ima45dv8]

Didn't shoot the prop, within a meter of his feet, and rounds didn't leave the range. I'd say the gun is unsafe, but the competitor shouldn't be DQ'd.

I think you meant, "...a shot which strikes the ground within 10 feet of the competitor..."

Agreed, not a DQ under our rules.

[Joe4d]

we cant really discuss a rules interpretation when there are no rules to interpret.

[TMC]

For clarity I said non-USPSA club not non-USPSA rules. They do follow the USPSA rule book

Didn't shoot the prop, within a meter of his feet, and rounds didn't leave the range. I'd say the gun is unsafe, but the competitor shouldn't be DQ'd.

If the rounds went down range and not over the berm, I'd say the shooter kept things safe. Bag the gun as unsafe per 5.1.6.

So you guys are saying that if the targets are being engaged from one position and the competitor move the fires 10 rounds just anywhere (ground, berm, in the prop) that is ok?

[Pat Miles]

For clarity I said non-USPSA club not non-USPSA rules. They do follow the USPSA rule book

Didn't shoot the prop, within a meter of his feet, and rounds didn't leave the range. I'd say the gun is unsafe, but the competitor shouldn't be DQ'd.

If the rounds went down range and not over the berm, I'd say the shooter kept things safe. Bag the gun as unsafe per 5.1.6.

So you guys are saying that if the targets are being engaged from one position and the competitor move the fires 10 rounds just anywhere (ground, berm, in the prop) that is ok?

Yup! USPSA rules spell out the criteria for a DQ and this lucky gent with a load in his pants didn't break any of them.

CYa,

Pat

[bbbean]

So you guys are saying that if the targets are being engaged from one position and the competitor move the fires 10 rounds just anywhere (ground, berm, in the prop) that is ok?

Are the rounds going over the berm, within 10 feet of the competitor or behind the 180?

[TMC]

For clarity I said non-USPSA club not non-USPSA rules. They do follow the USPSA rule book

Didn't shoot the prop, within a meter of his feet, and rounds didn't leave the range. I'd say the gun is unsafe, but the competitor shouldn't be DQ'd.

If the rounds went down range and not over the berm, I'd say the shooter kept things safe. Bag the gun as unsafe per 5.1.6.

So you guys are saying that if the targets are being engaged from one position and the competitor move the fires 10 rounds just anywhere (ground, berm, in the prop) that is ok?

Yup! USPSA rules spell out the criteria for a DQ and this lucky gent with a load in his pants didn't break any of them.

CYa,

Pat

So you guys are saying that if the targets are being engaged from one position and the competitor move the fires 10 rounds just anywhere (ground, berm, in the prop) that is ok?

Are the rounds going over the berm, within 10 feet of the competitor or behind the 180?

So just to beat this to death, how is this different than a shooter moving between positions and letting one go? It seems to me its an AD since he was backing away from the position and wasn't engaging any targets?

10.4.6 A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting

at targets.

Or maybe we owe the guy and apology.

[ima45dv8]

That last part (about movement) can be a bit subjective. Without being there to see it I can't say for certain whether the correct call was made. I'm not sure anyone else can, either.

[bbbean]

So just to beat this to death, how is this different than a shooter moving between positions and letting one go? It seems to me its an AD since he was backing away from the position and wasn't engaging any targets?

10.4.6 A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting

at targets.

Or maybe we owe the guy and apology.

I would argue he was actually shooting at a target when the gun went full auto. If he took a step or two back while it was unloading, he was simply dealing with the problem. Maybe he thought it was safer to spray downrange instead of bounce around in the port.

Although "intent" arguments are always iffy, the situation described doesn't sound like the situation the rule is intended to address - someone with poor trigger discipline who squeezes off rounds unintentionally.

I still think the crux of the issue is that faced with an unexpected malfunction, the shooter managed to keep the rounds in a safe direction. The situation could have been much worse.

[vluc]

interesting post - a non-USPSA match wanting rules clarification for USPSA. How do you run a non-USPSA match with USPSA rules? Seems you can call it whatever you want.

Give us a view of the stage and we can probably answer the movement question a little better. he may have put rounds in the ground well in front of a target - can't say he was not engaging.

An AD while moving is a whole nother kettle of fish.

[Nik Habicht]

In the context of a USPSA -- I've never seen that happen, though I seem to vaguely remember hearing guns double or triple occasionally...

Clearly this is a surprise to both shooter and RO. Assuming that all rounds went in a safe direction, and eventually impacted the berm or floor of the pit without anything going over the berm, and assuming that the shooter broke no other safety rules, I'd be inclined to let the shooter continue with another gun. I'd probably also be lenient on movement if the competitor needed to take a step or two to help control the blaster....

[G-ManBart]

For clarity I said non-USPSA club not non-USPSA rules. They do follow the USPSA rule book

Actually, you said "non-USPSA match", not non-USPSA club or non-USPSA rules.

When I hear someone say it's a non-USPSA match, I'm assuming it's not going to follow USPSA rule strictly, or at all, so I think that was why folks asked the question...your clarification that they follow the USPSA rules clears that up though R,

Edited July 17, 2010 by G-ManBart

[aztecdriver]

I hate to say this - but 10.4.6 A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting at targets. - Reread OP - they were backing out of the position and reloading - AND the gun went nuts after releasing the slide with the slide stop lever.

10.4 states "CAUSES" --- and I think someone could argue that the SHOOTER didn't cause the shot to occur during this time - but that's not what 10.4 says - It states an Accidental Discharge IS: (see the above)

Smarter people than I can figure it out - I just wanted to point out my reading of the rule and the unfortunate situation for the competitor.

[Skizeks]

If he is backing away from the barrel but still shooting through the barrel. It would be hard to say he was not engaging a target!

[Schutzenmeister]

In the context of a USPSA -- I've never seen that happen, though I seem to vaguely remember hearing guns double or triple occasionally...

[...]

OK ... It's been a few years, but I recall Ron Avery going full auto at the Limited Nationals in Fredreicksburg, VA in (I think) 1997. No, that's not yesterday, and it is 2 or 3 versions of the rule book back.

However ... He kept all rounds in the berm and in an otherwise safe direction. He was NOT DQ'd. (He did zero that stage, though!)

He was somewhat less than pleased with his (XXX) gun and (YYY) gunsmith.

[wide45]

It's not clear from the description of the event.

Glock went full auto after a reload and pressing the slide stop.

If the gun AD'ed when the slide closed, and just kept going, it's during a reload and a DQ.

If the competitor had completed the reload, and was engaging a target, and kept all rounds within the backstop, no DQ.

[sfchorn]

It's not clear from the description of the event.

Glock went full auto after a reload and pressing the slide stop.

If the gun AD'ed when the slide closed, and just kept going, it's during a reload and a DQ.

If the competitor had completed the reload, and was engaging a target, and kept all rounds within the backstop, no DQ.

Agree on both points. Remember, there is no more "equipment malfunction" alibi anymore. If it happened during a load, reload, remedial action or unload sequence (except for a detonation), it is a DQ. If it hit within 10 feet of the competitor or goes over the berm, it's a DQ. If it happens while moving, unless the competitor is engaging a target, it's a DQ.

If the competitor was engaging targets at the time, the gun gets bagged, but not the shooter.

[Nik Habicht]

It's not clear from the description of the event.

Glock went full auto after a reload and pressing the slide stop.

If the gun AD'ed when the slide closed, and just kept going, it's during a reload and a DQ.

If the competitor had completed the reload, and was engaging a target, and kept all rounds within the backstop, no DQ.

Ummm, not so fast -- we now have a definition for reloading:

Reloading . . . . . . . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm.

Mag's in, the reload's complete. If the gun goes bang when the slide closes (once or multiple times) it's no longer during the reload....

[GrumpyOne]

It's not clear from the description of the event.

Glock went full auto after a reload and pressing the slide stop.

If the gun AD'ed when the slide closed, and just kept going, it's during a reload and a DQ.

If the competitor had completed the reload, and was engaging a target, and kept all rounds within the backstop, no DQ.

Ummm, not so fast -- we now have a definition for reloading:

Reloading . . . . . . . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm.

Mag's in, the reload's complete. If the gun goes bang when the slide closes (once or multiple times) it's no longer during the reload....

Very true. Why would he have hit the slide release if the mag was not inserted? Therefore the reload was complete, and the full auto happened after the reload.

[guns_and_labs]

I also was there, and witnessed the event. The gun went off after he hit the slide release, the shots were not closer than 10 feet, and he was not moving to a new position (he actually looked like he was re-engaging the same target array).

By the way, most of that club (it seemed) was at a RO Level 1 class last weekend, and there were several spirited discussions of the incident. Most seemed to think that the shooter was owed an apology and not a DQ, but it was not unanimous.

Edited July 23, 2010 by guns_and_labs