wide45 Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 The gun went off after he hit the mag release, So, he was not attempting to engage a target, when it first fired? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasmap Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 The gun went off after he hit the mag release, So, he was not attempting to engage a target, when it first fired? I am only guessing but I believe he meant slide release and not mag release. It's tough to go full auto with no mag in the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guns_and_labs Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 The gun went off after he hit the mag release, So, he was not attempting to engage a target, when it first fired? I am only guessing but I believe he meant slide release and not mag release. It's tough to go full auto with no mag in the gun. Correct. Slide release. Sorry. Correction made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooney Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 ...IMHO, someone gets to shoot the next match for free.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 No DQ, just retire the gun and game on... JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted August 10, 2010 Share Posted August 10, 2010 Ummm, not so fast -- we now have a definition for reloading:Reloading . . . . . . . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. Mag's in, the reload's complete. If the gun goes bang when the slide closes (once or multiple times) it's no longer during the reload.... Very true. Why would he have hit the slide release if the mag was not inserted? Therefore the reload was complete, and the full auto happened after the reload. I also was there, and witnessed the event. The gun went off after he hit the slide release, the shots were not closer than 10 feet, and he was not moving to a new position (he actually looked like he was re-engaging the same target array). By the way, most of that club (it seemed) was at a RO Level 1 class last weekend, and there were several spirited discussions of the incident. Most seemed to think that the shooter was owed an apology and not a DQ, but it was not unanimous. ...IMHO, someone gets to shoot the next match for free.... No DQ, just retire the gun and game on... JT So as far as you guys are concerned 10.4.3 cannot apply if the competitor is loading or reloading from slide lock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted August 10, 2010 Share Posted August 10, 2010 So as far as you guys are concerned 10.4.3 cannot apply if the competitor is loading or reloading from slide lock? No that is not what they said. My call is that chambering a round, is inserting ammo. They say it is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 10, 2010 Share Posted August 10, 2010 So as far as you guys are concerned 10.4.3 cannot apply if the competitor is loading or reloading from slide lock? No that is not what they said. My call is that chambering a round, is inserting ammo. They say it is not. Actually, I believe the rulebook says that chambering a round is different from loading or reloading.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted August 10, 2010 Share Posted August 10, 2010 Actually, I believe the rulebook says that chambering a round is different from loading or reloading.... Show me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted August 10, 2010 Share Posted August 10, 2010 (edited) So as far as you guys are concerned 10.4.3 cannot apply if the competitor is loading or reloading from slide lock? From the book: Reloading . . . . . . . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. If I were ruling on this, the competitor has completed the reload. The remedial action has been completed. Hence no DQ unless he torched it over the berm or closer than 10ft. Retire the firearm, score it as shot, call the RM for a gun replacement, chrono the new weapon and game on... JT Edited August 10, 2010 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 10, 2010 Share Posted August 10, 2010 Actually, I believe the rulebook says that chambering a round is different from loading or reloading.... Show me. See the Glossary -- specially "loading" and "reloading." Once the magazine is seated, the ammo has been inserted into the gun. Dropping the slide and actually chambering moves a single round from one location in the gun to another. By definition not part of the loading process, as we're not inserting additional ammo.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted August 10, 2010 Share Posted August 10, 2010 Nope. Loading starts with the insertion of ammo into the gun (mag in) and ends with the closing of the slide after you rack it. If you want to drop the hammer on an empty chamber with a mag in the gun, then you can't rack the slide until after the starting buzzer, or you're in violation of 10.5.9.....Feel free to arbitrate it..... See the Glossary -- specially "loading" and "reloading." Once the magazine is seated, the ammo has been inserted into the gun. Dropping the slide and actually chambering moves a single round from one location in the gun to another. By definition not part of the loading process, as we're not inserting additional ammo.... What made you change your mind? (first quote is from this thread ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 11, 2010 Share Posted August 11, 2010 Nope. Loading starts with the insertion of ammo into the gun (mag in) and ends with the closing of the slide after you rack it. If you want to drop the hammer on an empty chamber with a mag in the gun, then you can't rack the slide until after the starting buzzer, or you're in violation of 10.5.9.....Feel free to arbitrate it..... See the Glossary -- specially "loading" and "reloading." Once the magazine is seated, the ammo has been inserted into the gun. Dropping the slide and actually chambering moves a single round from one location in the gun to another. By definition not part of the loading process, as we're not inserting additional ammo.... What made you change your mind? (first quote is from this thread ) I might not have changed my mind..... Sometimes I play Devil's advocate in these threads.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted August 11, 2010 Share Posted August 11, 2010 So as far as you guys are concerned 10.4.3 cannot apply if the competitor is loading or reloading from slide lock? No that is not what they said. My call is that chambering a round, is inserting ammo. They say it is not. So how can 10.4.3 apply, while loading or reloading from slide lock, if chambering a round is not inserting ammo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 11, 2010 Share Posted August 11, 2010 Nope. Loading starts with the insertion of ammo into the gun (mag in) and ends with the closing of the slide after you rack it. If you want to drop the hammer on an empty chamber with a mag in the gun, then you can't rack the slide until after the starting buzzer, or you're in violation of 10.5.9.....Feel free to arbitrate it..... See the Glossary -- specially "loading" and "reloading." Once the magazine is seated, the ammo has been inserted into the gun. Dropping the slide and actually chambering moves a single round from one location in the gun to another. By definition not part of the loading process, as we're not inserting additional ammo.... What made you change your mind? (first quote is from this thread ) I've been thinking about this off and on for the evening, rereading both threads, looking at the rulebook..... Back in March, I argued DQ -- but under 10.5.9.... I'm thinking that's still the right rule. You could try 10.4.3, but I think you might get overturned at arbitration -- because of the definitions.... I'm relatively certain, there's been more than one dq overturned, because the wrong rule was cited initially.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted August 11, 2010 Share Posted August 11, 2010 So as far as you guys are concerned 10.4.3 cannot apply if the competitor is loading or reloading from slide lock? No that is not what they said. My call is that chambering a round, is inserting ammo. They say it is not. So how can 10.4.3 apply, while loading or reloading from slide lock, if chambering a round is not inserting ammo? My mistake. Your statement appears to be correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted August 11, 2010 Share Posted August 11, 2010 Nope. Loading starts with the insertion of ammo into the gun (mag in) and ends with the closing of the slide after you rack it. If you want to drop the hammer on an empty chamber with a mag in the gun, then you can't rack the slide until after the starting buzzer, or you're in violation of 10.5.9.....Feel free to arbitrate it..... See the Glossary -- specially "loading" and "reloading." Once the magazine is seated, the ammo has been inserted into the gun. Dropping the slide and actually chambering moves a single round from one location in the gun to another. By definition not part of the loading process, as we're not inserting additional ammo.... What made you change your mind? (first quote is from this thread ) I've been thinking about this off and on for the evening, rereading both threads, looking at the rulebook..... Back in March, I argued DQ -- but under 10.5.9.... I'm thinking that's still the right rule. You could try 10.4.3, but I think you might get overturned at arbitration -- because of the definitions.... I'm relatively certain, there's been more than one dq overturned, because the wrong rule was cited initially.... I was actually trying to point out how back in March you posted that loading ended with closing the slide, in contrast to now, where the consensus seems to be that loading ends with mag insertion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted August 11, 2010 Share Posted August 11, 2010 I'm not seeing a consensus on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted August 11, 2010 Share Posted August 11, 2010 I'm not seeing a consensus on that. When I look at this thread objectively, and don't subconsciously weight the value of various poster's opinions, neither do I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Try this: Start is with unloaded gun, slide down, on prop; load from mag on prop. At MR the shooter inserts a mag and racks the slide, does not have the supporting hand grip established, does not have gun anywhere near normal firing position and the gun fires. The bullet goes through the prop, in a safe direction, not striking the ground within 10 feet. The RO could not see if the shooter's finger was in the trigger guard. No movement was required to engage the first target, other than loading the gun and bringing it up to the port. The shooter immediately acknowledged that it was an AD. What's the call? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Try this: Start is with unloaded gun, slide down, on prop; load from mag on prop. At MR the shooter inserts a mag and racks the slide, does not have the supporting hand grip established, does not have gun anywhere near normal firing position and the gun fires. The bullet goes through the prop, in a safe direction, not striking the ground within 10 feet. The RO could not see if the shooter's finger was in the trigger guard. No movement was required to engage the first target, other than loading the gun and bringing it up to the port. The shooter immediately acknowledged that it was an AD. What's the call? Not quite enough information to make an accurate call, but at first blush, DQ for an AD while loading. There is no longer an alibi for a "broken gun." I cannot envision the gun going bang after the loading process is finished absent the shooter pulling the trigger unless it effectively slam-fired when the slide went forward. Probably splitting hairs here, but that's how I see it given the information presented. More detail is needed to make a truly accurate call ... I know ... In reality, this may be all there is, but still ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Not quite enough information to make an accurate call, but at first blush, DQ for an AD while loading. There is no longer an alibi for a "broken gun." I cannot envision the gun going bang after the loading process is finished absent the shooter pulling the trigger unless it effectively slam-fired when the slide went forward. Probably splitting hairs here, but that's how I see it given the information presented.More detail is needed to make a truly accurate call ... I know ... In reality, this may be all there is, but still ... What detail do you need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 Not quite enough information to make an accurate call, but at first blush, DQ for an AD while loading. There is no longer an alibi for a "broken gun." I cannot envision the gun going bang after the loading process is finished absent the shooter pulling the trigger unless it effectively slam-fired when the slide went forward. Probably splitting hairs here, but that's how I see it given the information presented.More detail is needed to make a truly accurate call ... I know ... In reality, this may be all there is, but still ... What detail do you need? Was the slide closed when the gun fired? Did the shooter pull the trigger? What did the RO see? What did the second RO see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 Not quite enough information to make an accurate call, but at first blush, DQ for an AD while loading. There is no longer an alibi for a "broken gun." I cannot envision the gun going bang after the loading process is finished absent the shooter pulling the trigger unless it effectively slam-fired when the slide went forward. Probably splitting hairs here, but that's how I see it given the information presented.More detail is needed to make a truly accurate call ... I know ... In reality, this may be all there is, but still ... What detail do you need? Was the slide closed when the gun fired? Did the shooter pull the trigger? What did the RO see? What did the second RO see? Seated the mag, racked the slide, bang. Neither RO had a clear view of the trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 Up until I read this thread I would have said DQ. Now I'm not sure if it went off during loading, since I'm not sure when loading ends. Since no one could say for sure where his finger was, maybe the RO should have let him keep going? I'd like to have a better grasp on this in case it happens again. Help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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