The gun stigma - a discussion

[Frank Einstein]

I was inspired to start this post after reading a post of the same title in the "what I hate" section, and realized I wanted to hear other peoples perspectives on the topic and didn't want it to be closed...

The post describes people's responses when they find out you're a pistol enthusiast. Personally, I have to deal with the gun stigma all the time at work - I am a physician working in NYC, so you can imagine most of my colleagues have never seen a pistol or know anyone who owns one, and they are all gun-control advocates. The department recently had a skit night, and they made a spoof video that depicted me as carrying a gun while on call, and drawing down on patients. It was actually very funny, but made me look a bit stupid and one dimensional (which was fine because that was the point).

But in thinking about it, it's an issue that comes up all the time, and not just at work. My wife tells me not to bring it up at parties or gatherings with friends, and is scared to death I might run into a neighbor some Sunday evening on the way to the range who might ask what I have in the cases that I am carrying. One time my mother-in-law asked for ideas for her husband for his birthday and I brought up a pistol, you would have thought I suggested a hooker, it got so tense. In general, as soon as someone finds out I'm a pistol shooter (and god forbid an action pistol shooter) it changes how they think of me, even if I met them at the ballet.

I would love to hear other peoples perspectives and experiences...

[Will_M]

Unfortunately it's usually a quick change of subject, as I can tell they're uncomfortable.

[bdpaz]

Good topic but one suggestion: If you post provide some background on your location. City and state if it's not in your profile. If "at work" is it a small/med/giant company, manufacturing or office work, etc.

[Seth]

Since you're unlikely to change anyone's mind, I try and be matter of fact. I answer questions if they're not ridiculous and try to be a reasonable sounding board. Remember that USPSA is a game and issues with CCW and gun control are entirely separate from the game.

[kurtm]

I would say that it really depends on the geographic area one is in. Most places in the South or West ( and some northern areas mostly rural) It is accepted. In Oklahoma I have never ran into the kind of remarks or reactions you are getting, Nor New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming. Now with that said in larger urban areas like Denver you will start to see hoplophobic reactions and comments. I would say any place that pictures it's self as Urbain you run in to it. At any gathering I have attended in Oklahoma with My wife ( She used to be a V.P. of a fortune 500 and now owns her own business, just to show you what kind of people we were with) It almost always came up that I shot and did so at a fairly high level. The reaction was almost always thats neat! I shoot too, or My husband loves to hunt...etc. I never once got the quintessential "Remind me not to get you mad" BUT occasionally I did get "if anything happens I am calling you". Now I have been places like you talk about and have had "that" comment, my usual response is Firearms can not erase morality, nor can they create it. When faced with a philosophical debate most shallow Hoplophobes retire....which is what was needed at the time anyway. KurtM

[Merlin Orr]

Certainly depends if you live in one of the Free States of America..... My wife has taken several ladies in her Sunday School Class ammunition (for their carry guns) that I had in my stock and they were having trouble finding in town.

God Bless Texas.

[Aglifter]

I've never heard anything other than, "Cool," etc. One odd response from some Yankee, but they tend to either assimilate or return home. ("Well, I guess that would be normal for a Texan" In about the manner that you'd say "poisoning someone to death is normal for a viper.")

IMO, stick w. it. Be nice, but leave competitive shooting magazines around, youtube clips, etc. The worst thing the gunnies ever did was to be ashamed, or try to be "discreet" socially. Shooting is not a perversion, and has no reason to be a hidden activity.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Aglifter

[Frank Einstein]

Good topic but one suggestion: If you post provide some background on your location. City and state if it's not in your profile. If "at work" is it a small/med/giant company, manufacturing or office work, etc.

My original post stated "I am a physician working in NYC" - At a large university medical center. I just moved from NYC across the river to NJ.

[bbbean]

I would love to hear other peoples perspectives and experiences...

My own friends and customers cover a pretty broad range from paranoid militia types to vegan pacifists (what can I say, I'm an open-minded guy). Obviously, my friends who are already gun-friendly just need a little explanation of how USPSA works and what kind of gun I use.

I used to tiptoe around my liberal friends and try to avoid antagonizing them, but then I decided to treat my interest in USPSA just like being an avid golfer or stamp collector. What I've learned is that an awful lot of the people I'd assumed would be anti-gun aren't. They're not knocking down the door to go to matches with me, but by and large they're open to the idea that shooting sounds like a fun sport. In a few cases, it's opened the line to dialogue on gun control, and while I can't claim any 180 degree converts, I've found that most of my friends are open to a polite and reasoned discussion. Even if they don't come all the way around, they are certainly less anti-gun than they were.

I have found that directing them to sights like Julie G's blog or Women of USPSA does a lot to change their image of the sport. In their mind, we're all dressed in ghillie suits, waving confederate flags, and conspiring to overthrow the government. Showing them a middle class Mom who's a champion and an integral part of the community makes them re-evaluate their assumptions.

The crux of keeping the line of communication open seems to be avoiding in your face adversarial positions. The more they can associate guns with reasonable people they already know and trust, the easier it is to imagine that the people they don't know are just as reasonable, safe, and legal.

Interestingly, I've also learned that my UPS and Fedex drivers are pretty gun friendly. I live on the farm and practice in the back yard in the afternoons, and somewhere along the way I stopped talking my gun belt off to walk up to the house when we'd get a delivery. They never blinked at me walking up with a gun and several mags on my hip. Now when I see them they ask if I've been to any matches lately and how I did.

Again, I think the key is for us to avoid being defensive about the issue or treating it like it's anything other than a common part of every day life. When we don't make a big deal of it, most of them don't either.

Edited June 25, 2010 by bbbean

[Dan Hefta]

I work at a small crane service company in MN and everyone knows about me a my addiction to shooting and shooting sports, several of them know that I have a permit to carry too. One day I show up for work and I see a sign on our office door "No Firearms Allowed", this threw me for a loop! I confronted some of the authors of this new sign and asked them "what's with the sign" they answered "we feel uncomfortable knowing that there are people working here that are armed, what if one of you goes postal?" I replyed "if one of us goes postal, your sign just disarmed any chance we had to stop the situation, do you think that sign is going to stop someone that is intent on doing harm to any of us? They answered "we see your point" the sign was removed and we all lived happily ever after. The End

[Seth]

Funny you mention UPS. My driver, who's been my driver a LONG time, called me on it one day when an overnight came in. He asked if it was a gun, since it required an adult signature and was insured for a lot. My response was yes and that sparked a firestorm of interest.

Ultimately, he turned out to be legitimately interested. Most of the people I come across aren't judgmental in front of me.

[bdpaz]

Good topic but one suggestion: If you post provide some background on your location. City and state if it's not in your profile. If "at work" is it a small/med/giant company, manufacturing or office work, etc.

My original post stated "I am a physician working in NYC" - At a large university medical center. I just moved from NYC across the river to NJ.

Sorry, that wasn't clear. It was directed towards future contributors so they follow your lead and give a good frame of reference .

[SA Friday]

Those that show interest, I educate. Those that show distain, I ignore. Regardless of which, I refuse to feel or show shame in who I am or the rights I have. That doesn't mean I walk around looking for a fight, but if I want to wear a USPSA or firearms related shirt or something like that I wear it. If it upsets someone, then I know who to try to educate or ignore.

[GentlemanJim]

I rarely have that problem here in N.M. its an open carry state, (I dont carry open in the city)

There is no force on earth that would compel me to visit ANY of the big cities or states that have gun bans

As far as the anti type people, I have gone to great lenghts to study them and I treat them with respect.

However, no person of that mind set, will ever find their way into the circle of people I call Friends

Jim

[Team Amish 1]

I must say people in Texas seem to be pretty open minded for the most part.

Very few give you that suspicious look after they find out what your hobby is and most people at my work place know how I spend my weekends.

As a matter of fact, I mentioned to a couple colleagues recently that I will be going to Las Vegas this fall and they immediately remembered that meant I got lucky enough to go to Nationals this year.

They were truly excited and happy for me.

So, it's not all bad, especially in this neck of the woods.

[Canuck223]

I'm not shy about my hobby. I refuse to treat target shooting like it's shameful and best kept secret.

[TreblePlink]

Having worked in academia for a long time, I've seen the typical wide range of attitudes, and there seem to be some clear trends. It's always dangerous to generalize, but geographically, the Northeast seems most phobic. Moreover, I think attitude has more to do with urban versus rural / semi-rural upbringing.

Rural folks often associate guns with hobbies, sport, and defense. Urbanites, who frequently have no any actual experience with guns whatsoever, too often seem hardwired to equate guns with gangs and violence period. In their mind anybody who likes guns must occupy the lower rung of the social ladder. And finally there are some (otherwise) very intelligent people who are extremely anti-gun - and firmly believe their convictions to be completely beyond question. Quite rational in many ways but not in others.

On the other hand, I've met people who start out anti-gun, but over time, seeing that gun owners can be intelligent, responsible and quite reasonable, come around to at least a more moderate view.

Although I do not now work in an environment where openly being pro-gun can result in informal (or even formal) sanctions, I cannot condemn the unfortunate who do, and choose to be discrete. There really are workplaces where being open about it can hurt or even destroy your career.

[sfchorn]

My boss actually asked me to write a story about my most recent USPSA match for the company newsletter. While I work in San Antonio, the company headquarters is in the DC area.

I'm curious if the article will get printed.

If it does, I'll post it under "What I Like"

[kcult]

I had a German colleague training with me all last week. During lunch, I asked him if he had ever shot a gun before. He said no. i asked him if he would like to shoot one. He said yes. I told my boss about it and we decided to plan a quick shoot during lunch a couple of days later. My boss is German and had never shot a gun until just a few months ago when I took him out for the first time. He shot my BHP, .45 and AK47. In his words it was one of the times he had in a very long time.

So, we all go out and I give a quick safety and operations lesson and then demonstrated by firing one round. When I offered the gun to the visitor, he said, "No." and he looked a little sheepish. The boss shot a few times and offered the visitor the gun. Again, he declined. I then pulled out the AK and fired a couple of rounds. When I offered to let him shoot it, he said no. We even offered to let him just hold the AK (empty) and we would take a picture that he could show his friends back in Germany. He said no.

I discussed this with my boss and we chalked it up to culture shock. My boss explained the general attitude concerning guns in Germany and we figured it was an inability to overcome that feeling. The reason my boss jumped at the chance may be because he has been in America over 12 years now and has been surrounded by it.

[rvb]

Firearms can not erase morality, nor can they create it.

Kurt,

That is out-freaking-standing.

My wife and I once hosted a cookout for a group of friends, which includes lots of political/philosophical differences.... carnivores to vegans, left-wing to right-wing, 'urbain' to rednecks, whatever. Everyone knew I shot, and a couple of my gun buddies and their spouses/girlfriends were there, too. I'm quite certain EVERYONE at that party had been around at some point when I had a gun out, even if just stopping by while I was dryfiring. Well I was in the middle of building my 9mm SBR'd AR. I bring it out to show a couple folks who I knew would be interested. The wife of a fella I had shot with, even taken to matches, SCREAMS bloody murder, like I had actually just shot someone. [Yes, all safe gun handling rules were followed]. She insisted I get that thing out of her sight. I tried to explain that it was no more dangerous than the handguns she had been around (and I seem to recall it didn't even have a bolt), but she wouldn't hear it. so those interested went back to my office to look it over. It was a very weird situation. (this was back when I was in central MD).

-rvb

Edited July 1, 2010 by rvb

[Sarge]

Don't take this the wrong way. I love this thread but I just don't give a flying sh*t anymore what people think about guns.

My neighbor asked me one day to give him some advice on getting a house gun. His wife made it LOUD and clear he was not bringing a damned gun into her house.

My other neighbor sees me working on brass in the garage one day and walks over and we have a beer. Out of the blue he asks just how much ammo does one guy need? And it was said in a very serious tone. It was clear he was uncomfortable living next to me.

And just tonight I go to the FedEx office because I missed my PV delivery at home. The lady in the office asked if it was fireworks since it said powder and was hazmat. I said it was gun powder and it is used to make target ammunition. She said in that case lets hurry up and get you on your way before we get blown up. Fireworks were OK but GUN powder was scary. I just don't get it so like I said I really don't care either.

[kcult]

I just found this. Interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76Gw6OFFMW4&feature=related

Edited July 1, 2010 by kcult

[konkapot]

Related story; Ill keep it short.

The victim of a road rage incident called 911. Somebody cut somebody off, and the other driver jumped out, smashed out the windows of this guy's car, and punched him in the face about a billion times. Victim's wife was present in car and saw the whole thing.

I go out there, taking the report, and the victim (grown "man") is carrying on a little bit about how helpless he felt, that he wasn't able to protect himself or his wife, "what if he tried to kill me", etc etc.

This went on for a little bit; I gently suggested to this beta male "Well, there are ways to protect yourself."

He looked at me with a contemptuous look, snorted, sneered, and said "Like how......go buy a GUN?!?!"

This was in a gun friendly, shall issue state.

Sometimes people are afraid of even the IDEA of protecting yourself. I think that's where we get the term "sheeple."

FY42385

[Aglifter]

I had a German colleague training with me all last week. During lunch, I asked him if he had ever shot a gun before. He said no. i asked him if he would like to shoot one. He said yes. I told my boss about it and we decided to plan a quick shoot during lunch a couple of days later. My boss is German and had never shot a gun until just a few months ago when I took him out for the first time. He shot my BHP, .45 and AK47. In his words it was one of the times he had in a very long time.

So, we all go out and I give a quick safety and operations lesson and then demonstrated by firing one round. When I offered the gun to the visitor, he said, "No." and he looked a little sheepish. The boss shot a few times and offered the visitor the gun. Again, he declined. I then pulled out the AK and fired a couple of rounds. When I offered to let him shoot it, he said no. We even offered to let him just hold the AK (empty) and we would take a picture that he could show his friends back in Germany. He said no.

I discussed this with my boss and we chalked it up to culture shock. My boss explained the general attitude concerning guns in Germany and we figured it was an inability to overcome that feeling. The reason my boss jumped at the chance may be because he has been in America over 12 years now and has been surrounded by it.

Part of it could be class issues as well. A wood-stocked O/U or wood-stocked rifle is viewed differently by many Euros than a black rifle. The BHP is a good choice to try w. a pistol - I found that a 1911 or a Python were easier to get them to try, than a polymer gun.

[Chills1994]

let me see if I can put it into words succinctly enough.

there is this perceived notion (by non gun people) that guns can right a wrong...maybe rightousness is too strong of a word...but at least with them I get this impression that to own a gun requires some moral fiber/character/spine...something they know that they don't have...and they are automatically jealous or envious that you occupy the moral high ground.

their only option is to demonize or propagandize gun ownership.

look at how cigarette smokers have been villified....that will be the same game plan used to smear us gunowners.