The shooting BELLY

[Field]

i think of fat heavy people as gun turrets that have higher recoil control, they are slower on thier feet but they compensate for it by shooting stages smarter

skinny, runty people are quicker on thier feet so might have an advantage on field courses with lots of movement but then they get pushed around more by thier gun more and they have more wasted movement.

athletic, medium framed people have both, and then if they have a good brain also, these people will win the EZ-est.

simple mathematics

Edited July 3, 2010 by Field

[Vlad]

I'm down 70lb from my heaviest, and trying to lose another 50 or so. I can tell you for a fact that I had better recoil control when I was heavier, I was shooting better and faster. In videos from a recent matched I noticed quite a bit of movement in my shoulder blades, and a bit more muzzle rise, and went back to older videos and it wasn't there. I'm not running a lot faster then I used to, but I also managed to herniate some disks and while I'm recovering as well as it can be expected that may be a factor in my moving speed.

Of course, I'm not telling anyone they should put weight on, but I find myself having to re-learn how to control recoil. On the other hand summer matches don't kick my ass as much as they used to.

[Field]

this guy is a good model of medium framed athletic shooting in my opinion

[Resjudicata]

this guy is a good model of medium framed athletic shooting in my opinion

Yep, I got to shoot with Mike and Yong at Double Tap this year. They can both move and shoot really well.

I have lost about 25 pounds and increased core strength and overall strength the past month. I can definitely say that my hold is much more stable and I am much more accurate. I shot my first clean run on the plates stage in Bianchi shooting a couple weeks ago. Thats up from my average of 5 plates down out of 48 like my normal runs. And, all my other stages are better. I'd say that whether you have the belly or not, getting into better overall shape will help one's shooting whether you are a D shooter or a top GM.

Just my opinion.

Chris

Edited August 14, 2010 by Flexmoney

[Jake Di Vita]

I've always said that if you ever hit a plateau in anything - try getting stronger and see what happens.

[XRe]

this guy is a good model of medium framed athletic shooting in my opinion

While not "70's big", Mike is not a "medium framed" guy... He's pretty big, damn fit, very strong, with wide shoulders... Stand next to him sometime when he's wearing a UA compression shirt...

Here's the deal - it's already been said, but I'll put it in a different way. If you improve your power to weight ratio, you will improve your ability to play this game - everything about the game gets better (no, inertia in your body does not do squat to manage recoil, much as the fat guys would like to imagine it does). You improve "power to weight" by both losing non-lean body mass (ie, fat) and improving your strength (overall strength, definitely, with a focus on sprinting muscles - core, legs). It's also interesting to note that "long/slow distance cardio" doesn't do a damn thing for you in this - you are far better served by shorter, heavier, more intense workout sessions. It's true that general physical preparedness (GPP) will make a big difference in your endurance during the day on the range - there are a number of ways to achieve that, though, and most of them do not build your strength in useful ways for this game at the same time. You might as well benefit from both at the same time, and stop spending hours on a bike, the treadmill, or the road, unless you're just doing that stuff because you enjoy it (I'd rather be on the range shooting, personally...).

You can be strong and have decent GPP and still be fat (fat is mostly determined by what you stuff in your face). Fat guys can still shoot well relative to other shooters, but will never reach the level they could be at if they were fit and down around 10% body fat (or lower). Fitter guys will also be able to play the game at a higher level longer in life.

Ok, that's the fitness/performance angle. Let's talk about it from a totally different perspective. When you're actually shooting, if you are carrying tension in your core (ie, your abs are tight, you're trying to suck in your gut so you look good on that YouTube video, whatever...) you are screwing your recoil control. You need to have a relaxed, loose core (minus whatever tension you need to hold a particular shooting position, etc)... otherwise, recoil control stops at the shoulders, and the gun will push you rearward on every shot (seen as more flip, and inconsistent gun travel from behind the gun, but the rest of us are watching your shoulders get hammered backward on every shot).

There it is - like it or not, given the same shooting skills, the fitter dude is going to win every time (even on stand and shoot exercises).

[ST43130]

Good post XRe. Just yesterday I mentioned to my wife the my equipment was holding me back and I would like to get a new competition pistol to which she said my belly is what is holding me back. So to get the pistol I had to agree to lose a few pounds. Right now I'm about 320#, so its hard to tell how spry I might be at 285# or so.

[gerritm]

I said this in another thread, I have the Dunlop Tire belly problem. My belly Dunlopped over my belt and made a spare tire.

[Lanzo]

this guy is a good model of medium framed athletic shooting in my opinion

you are screwing your recoil control. You need to have a relaxed, loose core (minus whatever tension you need to hold a particular shooting position, etc)...

Not a hit at you...but isn't that kind of a contradicting statement? I'd argue it takes really no more core engagement to stand than it does to hold a "particular position." That is unless were talking one of those EVIL weird bent over, turned sideways, shooting through a low port positions.

I'd argue most shooters aren't actively engaging their cores at most any moment and most certainly would every shooter would benefit from an engaged core when shooting in postion.

An engaged and ready core = preparation and in my experience it's always more beneficial for an athlete to be prepared for a stimuli rather than just react to it. Reaction = time and this is a time sensitive sport after all.

I do agree though...when given the same shooting ability...the fitter guy always wins.

--Lanzo

[XRe]

this guy is a good model of medium framed athletic shooting in my opinion

you are screwing your recoil control. You need to have a relaxed, loose core (minus whatever tension you need to hold a particular shooting position, etc)...

Not a hit at you...but isn't that kind of a contradicting statement? I'd argue it takes really no more core engagement to stand than it does to hold a "particular position." That is unless were talking one of those EVIL weird bent over, turned sideways, shooting through a low port positions.

What I said was "whatever tension you need to hold a particular shooting position"... That means exactly that some positions will require more effort than others to stay in position - your "weird bent over, turned sideways, shooting through a low port position" would require more tension in some areas than standing naturally upright. Either one requires some amount of effort to remain in that position.

I'd argue most shooters aren't actively engaging their cores at most any moment and most certainly would every shooter would benefit from an engaged core when shooting in postion.

And you'd be wrong - and I can prove it to you in approximately 15 seconds in person. All of my students can attest to this with you, as it's an important demo that they all experience. I don't mean that as a cut on you However, "expectations" around how things work frequently differ from how they truly play out. I have yet to see a shooter who was more prepared to handle recoil with their core "engaged" - in fact, in every single circumstance, it's proven to be exactly the opposite...

An engaged and ready core = preparation and in my experience it's always more beneficial for an athlete to be prepared for a stimuli rather than just react to it. Reaction = time and this is a time sensitive sport after all.

Don't confuse tension with preparation. Preparation to react to stimuli has nothing to do with muscle tension - and, it's easily provable that muscle tension in the body works against reaction time. Tighten up your core and you go slower... for various reasons... Fact

[Aristotle]

I've noticed it...

I lost about 30lbs in the last few months, and I am noticing that my upper body is rocking a little more on recoil now that I am lighter. Another GM I know also noted that when he lost weight he had to change his stance because of the noticeable increase in felt recoil.

I moved my weight around okay, but the big thing I have noticed besides having more velcro on the belt (and more hanging off now) is that I am able to launch and plant faster with less body sway, which allows me to break my shot faster.

I am changing my grip and stance now to compensate for the loss in weight.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Aristotle

[9mmalpha]

I agree with the big belly helps, specially if you lean a bit forward... I am shooting 115 round ball 9mm factory stuff, albeit a light load my hands barely move. I thought I was just getting better with my stance, all along my weight problem, which is getting worse with the years was helping. But notice how the bigger waste line makes my mags fall out.. lmao

yes bob I see your video, I think in general terms belly is more of liability, Ill just train to shoot with stance similar to sevigny and vogel. by the way I was there in freeport where you shoot at last july 11.

[FN fan]

Oh, ya, i shoot with some older fellas and when one of the guys lost 20lbs he sure uped his time! it all had to do with the mobility

[coyote4x4]

I don't know about this game, but in appleseed the guy next to me was so fat that when he went prone his elbows wouldn't touch the ground. Didn't help with his natural point of aim. Plus during the course of fire we had to go from standing to kneeling or standing to prone fast and he certainly wasn't fast.

[HS101]

the guy next to me was so fat that when he went prone his elbows wouldn't touch the ground. Didn't help with his natural point of aim.

Thanks for the visual ...

[blaster113]

Lots of good points in the previous posts. I also think that a higher level of physical fitness makes it easier to be successful in this game. I'm one who is blessed with a shooting belly; I can't lose it no matter how hard I work out because I love beer and love to eat. I tell the wife mine is genetic The smaller guys run circles around me during matches, especially our local M's who don't have a front appendage and lead feet like I do. Anyway, I could never move fast even when I was in decent shape doing 6 mile jogs not too long ago. I have to compensate for my slow foot speed by focusing on efficient movement, transitions and footwork.

Leg and core strength helps with quicker movement, upper body strength will help with recoil control.

Edited August 15, 2010 by SIG shooter

[VegasOPM]

My weight has varied between 195# and 280# through my shooting career (6'2" tall). I can't say that weight has made a difference for recoil control on pistols- but it does on shotguns. When I am heavier, the gun doesn't move me as much. That being said, I would prefer to be at the thinner side of that equation if possible. I move better overall when I am lighter and stronger (220# was the best mix of strength and weight.

[Chills1994]

I don't know so much about recoil control and having a belly, but I do tend to notice that belly'ed guys tend to sweat more in this heat and it seems like heat takes a toll on them sooner and to a greater degree during a match.

I would worry more about that than how it affects recoil.

[Field]

My weight has varied between 195# and 280# through my shooting career (6'2" tall).

you kind of like this dude?

I don't know so much about recoil control and having a belly, but I do tend to notice that belly'ed guys tend to sweat more in this heat

oh man you should have seen me at this last match the range was situated in this area where theres a bunch of trees and stuff so theres no wind but then you still got the sun beatin down on you, i was like a fountain of sweat i probably went from 165lbs to 155lbs during the course of the day. lol

Edited August 18, 2010 by Field

[HuskySig]

this guy is a good model of medium framed athletic shooting in my opinion

While not "70's big", Mike is not a "medium framed" guy... He's pretty big, damn fit, very strong, with wide shoulders... Stand next to him sometime when he's wearing a UA compression shirt...

Mike Hughes is not a "Medium framed" guy. He's about the size of an NFL linebacker. There's a reason why Yong Lee calls him Mike Huge...

[pries81]

this guy is a good model of medium framed athletic shooting in my opinion

Dude, medium frame? Mike Hughes is Stacked! His arms weigh more than my core...well maybe not my tactical tummy. I find it harder to squat with a gut and cr speed belt on. I do wonder about slowing the momentum down while coming into a position though- kinda like trying to stop a wave.

Edited August 23, 2010 by pries81

[pries81]

I think the TT can help with recoil control.

...Consider this video. Notice the placement of the handgun and the shear force of recoil control.

Edited August 23, 2010 by pries81

[blaster113]

I think the TT can help with recoil control.

...Consider this video. Notice the placement of the handgun and the shear force of recoil control.

Whoah! Thats recoil control to the extreme. I'd like to see this guy run around a 32 round field course... Might need an AED and CPR trained personnel on standby

Edited August 23, 2010 by SIG shooter

[Filishooter]

In China a "buddha belly" is a sign of prosperity and good luck. Remember that next time you get a perf hit on the D zone vs a Mike and thank the belly!

Edited August 27, 2010 by Filishooter

[Neil E.]

One thought, Kinetic energy ??