caps Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 I also have a personal belief (excuse my paranoid rant) that IPSC eliminated this catagory because in many other countries, officers are often discouraged from being armed or participating in what their liberals call "paramilitary training." Europeans in particular are conspicuously guilty of this. IPSC likely caved to a certian degree of political pressure just like the Olympics did in terms of firearms sports. Yep, that'd be right. If something sucks blame ipsc. They never had a LEO cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 I say that the Active Duty Military and Active Duty Police should be recognized IF the host club wants to. As long as we are not phrohibited from recognizing Special Catagories, I believe we can. Yes, you can, but you'll have to do it manually somehow. Law and Mil were taken out of ezwinscore. Bn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmshtr Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 I talked to Manny about this a while ago, and we came to the conclusion that ANY major match that decided to recognize Law and Military could contact one of us, and we would take care of the trophies, plaques, or whatever, at no cost to the match whatsoever. I will be covering the enormous expenses of theses cumbersome categories. There....now isn't that better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Brown Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Phil, While I admire you for stepping up to the plate, there is no reason to put yourself to expense because an organization makes a bad decision. Michael Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigLucky Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 I have very little input for this other than to say that there are a number of LEO's that shoot at our local club, and not a one of them checks the Law box. They want to be up against everybody else for their shooting, not raised to a higher level than they shot because of their job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RKooi Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 They are competing against everyone else; High Law or High Military are just specialty categories, not divisions. IPSC decided to remove these categories, USPSA decided it wasn't a deal breaker and in the spirit of wanting a more aligned rulebook followed suit. I think Phil's rationale for keeping them in place here in the US is a good one. It is a tool to hopefully recruit and retain members from the LE and MIL communities. Our IPSC forefathers thought it was a good idea to recognize these professions, and so do I. As long as the rulebook does not prevent me from recognizing High Law and High Military, as a MD I will recognize them. And Phil, you don't even have to foot the bill! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 USPSA decided it wasn't a deal breaker and in the spirit of wanting a more aligned rulebook followed suit. Actually, some of us fought pretty hard to preserve them for the USPSA rulebook, but could not reach the necessary 5 votes. Loosely translated: contact your AD, and tell them that the next time the rulebook is opened up for edits, you want these back in USPSA no matter what IPSC does Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 IPSC decided to remove these categories, USPSA decided it wasn't a deal breaker and in the spirit of wanting a more aligned rulebook followed suit. I think Phil's rationale for keeping them in place here in the US is a good one. It is a tool to hopefully recruit and retain members from the LE and MIL communities. Our IPSC forefathers thought it was a good idea to recognize these professions, and so do I. Just to clear up a misunderstanding: IPSC has not removed these categories. IPSC never had these categories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RKooi Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 OK, then I guess I need a history lesson. Where did the recognition of High Law and High Military as specialty categories come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 IPSC has not removed these categories. IPSC never had these categories. Neil, thanks for setting the record straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 I added a poll...vote...and email your Area Dorectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 I voted YES!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerwas Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 I've known about the LEO catagory, but never thought much about it as I have been just shooting against everyone else in Limited or Production or whatever division I happen to be shooting in. In a local event, I'd just as soon keep it that way because there is more competition, which is a good thing. Now, having said that, I hope they keep the LEO/Military division. I think the reason they may not have a Firefighter catagory, may be because being a Firefighter generally doesn't require that person to be a sharp pistolero. Now, please don't get me wrong I have all the respect in the world for Firefighters, but they generally don't bust into a situation and put someone down with a firearm. Instead, they do it with a hose!! haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmshtr Posted February 1, 2005 Author Share Posted February 1, 2005 TRP, I agree that LE/MIL should not be recognized at the local level...although I saw it done when I first started shooting. I started this topic, because I just didn't see how it helped USPSA grow into a stronger organization by eliminating these two categories. and M. Brown, I figured that LE & MIL removal HAD to be a financial decision, b/c it didn't hurt anyone by keeping them. Therefore, I'm willing to "donate to" or "sponsor" USPSA matches to take away any other doubt as to whether these divisions should be recognized. I actually wanted to throw in a $100 cash prize for LE/MIL category winners in all divisions at last year's HGN, but was advised otherwise by Mr. Voight. I also realized later that I would basically be paying most...if not all of my own shooters! I'm so proud of my gang. (Proud parent smile) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glock-cop Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 I liked the LE division, but then I'm a cop. Nobody ever checked any credentials. Many people told me that the person that won high LE didn't qualify as LE. If your going to put LE/Military back it should be for full-time sworn officers or active full-time military. There are a million ways to be a reserve, or tac-medic or you did a favor for the chief of some department and he made you a reserve or special deputy/officer. . I try to hit as many matches as possible, but my job does not also allow the time off for matches or practice. As would a military occupation. That is why I thought they allowed for a special award. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kory Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 I don't see why they should have a separate award or class. If the rationale is to attract more new shooters, why do it in a fashion that can ONLY attract more LEO's not regular Joe's as well? Do LEO's need more incentive for this sport than everybody else? If I carried a sidearm all day everyday, that would be incentive enough to want to master it's use. I don't carry and I still have enough incentive to get out there and compete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmshtr Posted February 1, 2005 Author Share Posted February 1, 2005 The poll seems pretty split, which isn't bad considering only about 10% of major match competitors are LEO's. Whether you're for it or against it, no one has been able to tell me who or what it hurt to keep it the way it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Phil, It hurt my ego because I'm not LE nor MIL. I'm way past Jr. and about 10 years from Sr. thus I have to be where the most competition is and not win anything. There's no special category for guys like me... Thus Nemo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 No special category....everyone shoot heads up... with no classes either, with what they drag to the line.....no divisions either.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 No special category....everyone shoot heads up... with no classes either, with what they drag to the line.....no divisions either.... Right on! What David said! I've never been anything but embarassed when getting a ribbon for "First E Fat Nitwit." Sorry Phil. Just the way I feel about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Here is what I found in the online minutes. Title: Law-Military Date of Motion: 1/04/04 11:00 PM Closed: Submitted by: Area1 Seconded by: Area8 Status: Posted Result: Failed Motion: Area-1 moves that Appendix A2, section 3 be changed to include the following categories: Law (full-time paid law-enforcement with arrest powers) Military (on current active duty) Area1: Yes, Rollcall Requested Area2: No Area3: No, Rollcall Requested Area4: No Area5: No Area6: No Area7: Yes, Rollcall Requested Area8: No President: Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shipster Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 I voted NO. The LE's that I know think that it's a hollow award. It doesn't encourage participation. So they don't even shoot that category. We had a LE show up at one of our club matches and after having his backside handed to him by just about everybody (score wise) he never returned. We were nice and supportive and so was he, but I believe he was a little embarrassed with his performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted February 5, 2005 Share Posted February 5, 2005 Dump Super Senior and raise Senior to 65.Alex ill second that, I would like to see the mil/le division come back though...even for just bigger matches...like area matches an the nationals./ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 6, 2005 Share Posted February 6, 2005 I was really suprised when the results didn't show a firm..."hell yeah". Still, the margin "for" is pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 While I voted in this poll to return the LEO and MIL specials, I have to agree with Rhino on the LEO exclusive concept. I work in South America where every oppressive, gun control / registration, unarmed populace theory is a harsh reality. PPC in the US is a tough course, but I wish they would open it up to non-LEO's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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