gmshtr Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 I think that this is a mistake. The decision to remove these special categories will now make it harder to convince LEO and Military to chose Practical Shooting over PPC, Bianchi, Bullseye, Steel Challenge, etc, or any other shooting sport that recognizes these categories. I know that many don't think that these should be a special category, but what does it cost the sport to support our military and law enforcement with a simple trophy? $50.00 This is just ridiculous. Between me and my teammates, we've introduced over 50 new shooters (LEO's & Military) to the sport of USPSA, and High Law/Military category is a big incentive to them. I know it was for me. Please contact your Area director to express your views on this rule change...a rule change that I, personally was never asked my opinion about. Phil Strader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Phil, As you mention about no input, I sent an email to my area director when the agenda for the last BOD meeting was published on the USPSA members page, specifically asking as to what was to be discussed on the list of items in the agenda regarding the rules, his response was to go read the comments on the IPSC draft rules. I then submitted my thoughts and the next reply was that I apparently did not read the draft IPSC rules. I had previously reviewed the draft IPSC rules and then reviewed them a second time, so what gives. It is a little dishearting that when you ask for information so you can provide input to get the type of response that I did from the AD. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 This seems to be a new trend. Why wasn't senior and super senior eliminated? What criteria was used to keep these and eliminate Law and Military? Once again, somebody "forgot" to put it on the BOD agenda and decisions were made without any chance for input or discussion. When this happened with the new Tactical 3-gun division, it was stated that nobody got hurt or was prohibited from shooting because the new Division didn't exclude anybody. Apparently, this rationale doesn't apply to special catagories. So, what's the justification this time? Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 The board undertook the task of reviewing the IPSC rules, and determining what local (US) changes were needed. Since law/mil was removed at the World level, there was no "agenda item" for USPSA to remove it. The agenda item was to review the new IPSC rules and see what local (USPSA) changes needed to be made. In fact, if no action was taken by the board these categories would have disappeared without so much as a vote by the board. I had mixed feelings about this one - I tried to limit my "yes" votes on local USPSA rule changes to a few items (like removal of the "Warning" concept and our own divisions), however, I did vote in favor of keeping Law/Mil. My justification was that this would help make our sport attractive to this segment of the market, and that the additional visibility given to law/mil people shooting our sport would enhance the image of USPSA. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 In order to further the appeal of the Law and Military categories, how would you feel if it was limited to non-GMs? Non Ms too?? Just a thought, no opinion either way. Bucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 IPSC is just dang fun, why should someone need more incentive than that As a soon to be LEO I could care less about another award for being LEO. It is not like having a badge is a disadvantage or anything, although some think all cops can't shoot and are afraid to play in IPSC. I know 4 GM LEO's and the've NEVER expressed joy over getting high LEO, high overall, now that's another story. Military, well ask Travis or Max if they care about it, I think they are after high overall too and they actually get paid to shoot should they get extra prizes too? True achievement isn't measured by a trophy on a wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 phil, this isn't a big deal really. state, section, and area championships can still recognize these catagories if the match directors want to do so. right? national and world championships will not recognize leo and military. lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Please excuse my ignorance here. I don't understand why LEO/Military folk have seperate catagories. Why not fire fighters or school teachers or ...? I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm just confused. I understand Seniors and Juniors and so forth since age is something we all share and all were or will be. I understand equipment divisions since that way people can chose to compete on a more "equal basis". I understand classes since it encourages people to some relative success. I may or may not agree with this but I do understand it I don't understand why a sport seperates some people by occupation. Is this a throwback to the days when IPSC was supposed to be an adjunct form of training for people who worked with guns? It's some times difficult to understand the intent if one didn't follow the discussion Thanks, Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmshtr Posted January 21, 2004 Author Share Posted January 21, 2004 Lynn, Most of the Area and State matches are still recognizing it. It just seems like a decision to remove a special category, especially one that doesn't cost anything, is counter-productive. Loves2shoot, The difference for you is that you were an IPSC shooter first. High Law may not be an issue for you, me or other current shooters, but it is LEO/Military who are just starting. I was a cop first, and I loved getting High Law awards, and I'm not alone. The point is, who did it hurt to leave it the way it was? Who does it hurt to take it away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stratochief Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 I personally think we should eliminate everything except high junior (up to 17), high lady and high senior. Using ones occupation as an excuse to get yet another award is silly. This should be about shooting, not recognizing someone for what their occupation is. If someone wants an award, they should earn it like the rest of us. Just MY opionion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 I was a LEO prior to going into my current profession. Without going into great detail, Phil is right and until you walk a mile in his shoes...you might not understand. I also have some personal feelings that I'll share. Peace officers and military personel are an armed segment of our society who have chosen to put their collective asses in harm's way to keep the rest of us safe. Maybe that sounds corny, but that's how I feel. In my view, a special category is one way of recognizing what those folks do and it is a small way of expressing our gratitude. Frankly, if IPSC doesn't want categories, let's dump all of them. Hell, for that matter, we were all born naked so let's drop all classes and categories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 I was an LEO for 10 years before I started shooting IPSC. I don't see the need for all these feel good special awards. Just because I carry a gun everyday for a living has nothing to do with how I shoot. I can see a special award if the LE/Mil shoots a duty gun from duty leather but otherwise I'm just another guy on the range trying to win. Trust me I won't be showing up shooting a Beretta anytime soon unless I totally lose my freaking mind! High Jr. and High lady ok dump the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Hell, for that matter, we were all born naked so let's drop all classes and categories. I second that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Phil: If you move this to the hate section you won't have to put up with a bunch of blabber from guys who just don't get it. Chriss: I am not talking about a bunch of hugs and kisses all the way around, I am talking about Law and Military being in a special group for a purpose. I don't know about IPSC, but in other shooting disciplines law/military have separate recognition because they serve a special purpose. As far as I am concerned we can all shoot heads up but that is a philosophical belief that I know is not beneficial to attracting and retaining new shooters. We need to divide folks up by ability, age, gender, etc. to spur growth in the sport. That is a fact of life. As far as I am concerned, if we are going to have categories, law/military should be included. I agree with Phil that having the category does more good for the sport than harm so why dump it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titandriver Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Ron --- I totally agree with you and L2S, dump all the categories! If you want to see how it will work, shoot the Idaho "Glocks Only" state championship match April 25th. This match was wildly successful last year & promises to be so again this year. I'll PM you with a flyer, pass it around to your Wyoming buddies please. Anybody else wanting to know more about "heads up, run what ya brung" matches get in touch with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 I think it should go back to the old time method of everyone shoooting heads up. No classes, however you would loose lots of shooters in different divisions. Ok with me to keep the divisional differences, just drop the classes. If someone wants to know how they do against shooters of their own caliber, have classes in the local clubs, but Nationally it is a waste of time and $$. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Great idea! I really like running heads-up per division...heck, I always aim (so to speak) for the GM's anyway. Since Military and Law (and until now, I competed in both at the same time ) are gone, lets FIX that silly Junior thing. Make it "17" instead of "21." Dump Super Senior and raise Senior to 65. Everyone already knows my opinion of Lady's class...so I'll skip that one Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilTerry Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Wakal - Junior is fixed for USPSA - it is now 17. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWK Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Will this have any effect on the point series? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilTerry Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 As far as I understand the Points Series format - there were no special categories recognized just Division Overall Winner and Division Class Winners so these changes have no effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 In order to further the appeal of the Law and Military categories, how would you feel if it was limited to non-GMs? Non Ms too?? I'd think that was ridiculous. What, "We'll recognize you as a soldier or cop....as long as you're not really good"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Phil, my first reaction was "who cares". I even tried to put myself into the shoes of LE's and MP's (actually I was 5 years Navy), but still.......nothing. Then Ron posted: "Maybe that sounds corny, but that's how I feel. In my view, a special category is one way of recognizing what those folks do and it is a small way of expressing our gratitude" Absolutely! ....combine that with what Phil said: "..The point is, who did it hurt to leave it the way it was? Who does it hurt to take it away?.." Absolutely, absolutely. My question is, what the hell does USPSA "save" by eliminating this special category? Is it because IPSC did? Why did they do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 : Noooo TightLoop & .. others As a dyed in the wool sandbagger I don't like that idea.... But actually - You want to know how good you are? Really? Sink or swim. Keep divisions but heads up for all actual competition. As long as its Apples to Apples - the cream will rise to the top. Being the best "D" or "A" shooter or "Senior" or what ever is really kind of a BS title anyway. Isn't that the way most prize tables/reward systems, etc., are set up anyways? Now if you make a special category that recognizes 50+yr old fat wannabes that would like some special acknowledgment - I will go for that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 In order to further the appeal of the Law and Military categories, how would you feel if it was limited to non-GMs? Non Ms too?? I'd think that was ridiculous. What, "We'll recognize you as a soldier or cop....as long as you're not really good"? 1.) I think Phil was saying that recognizing LEO/Military categories is good for the sport because it's another incentive to get a cop/soldier out to a match. 2.) I think Bucky was trying to make that exact point with his question --- Most established competitors don't need the category, BUT IT MIGHT HELP TO ATTRACT NEW SHOOTERS from the ranks of the military or law enforcement. I like anything that'll get anyone out to try this sport... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 And Ron's comment resonated too.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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