rmills Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Since almost everyone is opposed to creating Open 10, it would be appropriate to eliminate Limited 10, as the decision to create it was based on the unavailability of legal hi-cap mags. In reviewing the posts opposing Open 10, the "too many divisions" comment kept coming up in reference to Limited 10, Production, and Revolvers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Limited 10 serves a couple of needs: 1) A divsion which accepts new, legal to manufacture, equipment. Without this, there will be no industry interest and hence no gun press. Yes, I know Production have the 10 concept as well, but L10 has more room to push the limits of what the guns can do. 2) Several other reasons: a. Hawaii - no > 10 round mags, no grandfathering b. NJ - 15 round limit c. CA - NO new purchases of > 10 round mags - it's posession of a specific mag by a specific individual which is grandfathered, not the mag by virtue of its manufacture date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Nothing divides USPSA members more than the subject of More/Less divisions and the elimination of ANY division. Enough already...we have what we have. Leave 'em alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 What? How many people shoot revolver (16 people at nationals last year)vs. L10 (157 people at nationals last year, 66 more than in production)? If you dump a category, dump revolver and then combine production with restricted 1911's and no 2011's. If courses are 8 round neutral, hi-caps really don't make a difference, if the courses aren't 10 round neutral it does make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 it would be appropriate to eliminate Limited 10 PLEASE, NO! For beginning IPSC shooters Limited 10 is a very good thing. It provides a division that is not like production or IDPA like (in guns and gear not in rules! please don't flame on this) but more IPSC like (SAO 1911 with race holsters and pouches) without having to compete with full out race guns. I can't recall seeing any 2011's compete in Limited 10 at our club and have only seen a couple of limited capable para's (and these were people who usually shot limited who were "vactioning" in L10 because they wanted to practice more reloads under match conditions.) L10 is a great place to learn the sport of IPSC (and there is a lot to learn) without having to get crushed by the veteran Limited shooters. I also think L10 is a great place for people who enjoy the sport but don't ever want to become sponsored or win a national title but want to participate in it. It's these people and not the pros that keep a sport alive. It's these people who go the stores to buy the books, videos, and equipment to play it. If people begin to think that they can't compete in a sport either physically or financially, the sport will not grow and eventually die. Production and L10 provide this accesibility into IPSC/USPSA. I am a beginner, I've only been shooting IPSC for about 6 months. I just got my limited gun 2 weeks ago. I am not planning to shoot L10 any time in the near or far future. The time I spent in L10 (and production) was well worth it and I would do it again. I will be recommending to all new shooters to start there. So before anyone eliminates L10, please remember us new guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 hi-caps really don't make a difference If you have a 32 round COF with 4 separate arrays, as a L10/Production shooter you will be most likely reloading after each array. That is 3 reloads. If you are super fast these will take you 1.5 seconds each. That is 4.5 seconds. Same shooter with hi capacity will only make 1 reload at 1.5 seconds. The same shooter should be at least 3.0 seconds faster from L10/Production to Limited/Open. For mortal people, even when the reloads are done on the move they still add time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Hey!...don't talk like that rmills. My Lim-10 % is in the 90's% now. I'm almost there..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Is it just me or don't we have classes so that people are competeing against others with the same skill level? I keep hearing this I'm new and don't want to compete against the better shooters. Production in some peoples mind was a beginners division, guess what we have GM's there now. THERE IS NO DIVISION FOR NEW SHOOTERS, that's what D class is for! Short round, Yes the hi-cap will reload less but he/she is in limited not L-10 2 different DIVISIONS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stratochief Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 What? How many people shoot revolver (16 people at nationals last year)vs. L10 (157 people at nationals last year, 66 more than in production)? If you dump a category, dump revolver and then combine production with restricted 1911's and no 2011's. If courses are 8 round neutral, hi-caps really don't make a difference, if the courses aren't 10 round neutral it does make a difference. If anything is broken, it's Limited 10. I'm sure the orignal intent of L10 was to allow the single stack and IDPA folks to play in USPSA, now it's dominated by $2500 race guns using 10 high-caps loaded to 10rds, how can a guy with a single stack compete a race-gun? L10, as screwed up as it might be, is a step forward. USPSA should give EVERYONE who has a pistol, no matter what it might be, Open Gun, Revolver etc...the opportunity to compete and we should do everything we can to promote each division. Maybe we need some new L10 rules that follow Production as far as pistols? I wouldn't have any idea how to begin there. Because if you ban 2011's, you'd also have to ban Para's, Springfield, CZ, Tanfoglio etc.... I think L10 is probably as good as it's gonna get if you ask me. I don't shoot much L10, but it's a fun division to shoot if I want to bring out my IDPA gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted January 19, 2004 Author Share Posted January 19, 2004 Thanks for everyone's replies! It would seem that everyone accepts the concept of Limited 10, why it was created, and very much support it. The very same reasons that Limited 10 was created should be the logic used to create Open 10. I was just trying to prove a point with this topic. Thanks to all who reinforced it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonB Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 What do you care? I thought you were jumping ship and going to IDPA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 I'm sure the orignal intent of L10 was to allow the single stack and IDPA folks to play in USPSA, now it's dominated by $2500 race guns using 10 high-caps loaded to 10rds, how can a guy with a single stack compete a race-gun? There's plenty of shooters, who armed with a singlestack, would outshoot and embarrass 90% of the folks who shoot widebody guns in Lim-10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 There's plenty of shooters, who armed with a singlestack, would outshoot and embarrass 90% of the folks who shoot widebody guns in Lim-10. Yeah...we try. Every once in a while, we're successful! Honestly a single stack 1911 gives up NOTHING to a widebody in L10.....it's the person behind the gun that makes the difference...not the gun itself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 admin mode: Lets not turn this thread into a Single-stack vs. double-stack in Limted 10 thread. We already have a few dozen pages on that already. If you want to beat that horse again...post on the dedicated thread (you will find it with a search). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 THERE IS NO DIVISION FOR NEW SHOOTERS, that's what D class is for! Production is not a beginners division. L-10 is not a beginners division. My main point is that L-10 was good to me. If I was in a club with Production and L-10 M/GM's instead of Limited and Open M/GM's maybe I would be saying that Limited and Open were the less intimidating divisions to shoot. I can tell you this though. When "new to ISPC shooters" show up for orientation they usually come with Production and L-10 ready guns (they usually only need more mags). I have yet to see a person show up with a 2011 for "new to IPSC shooter" orientation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddjob Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 L-10 is very popular in N. Calif. Its good for us in California. I really don't know if Open-10 would do any good here. My guess is that it would not do well. Either way I'm for L-10 (I've already bought my stuff for it too!!). Possible change (elimination of current equipment after spending $$) upsets more shooters than catagories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Fact is, Lim-10 is an entry-level division. Bring what you got and away you go. Open-anything isn't. Despite all the "gathering dust in the back of the safe" claims, there really aren't a lot of single-stack race guns left out there. I might be convinced to limit wide-bodies in L-10 if the ban sunsets, but let's cross that bridge when we come to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted January 20, 2004 Author Share Posted January 20, 2004 What do you care? I thought you were jumping ship and going to IDPA? Gordan: I'm not "jumping" to IDPA as I have been shooting IDPA matches for 2 years. Although at this time, USPSA is in a decline (both in membership and participation), after competing in USPSA matches for 13 years, I certainley hope that new leadership emerges and saves the sport as I do enjoy shooting USPSA type matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 The problem here is that to put restrictions on an "Open" division would defeat the purpose. As the name implies, it is "open" to anything. You have a few limitations such as magazine length but nothing out there in wierdness land. There is no nonsense about bullet diameter or anything like that. Make pf, which ever you prefer, and lets go. So if you are thinking that there needs to be a 10 rd friendly format for red dot optic scoped guns, I have your answer - The Steel Challenge. Revolver friendly too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 I stated several months ago the intentions of myself and others in our area to not renew our USPSA memberships ... we will take advantage of the "other options" available to us and shoot IDPA from here I guess GordonB and I consider that to mean you were taking your ball and playing elsewhere. Which makes your topics seem like sniping at USPSA from the sidelines, much like the IDPA "rulebook." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 I stated several months ago the intentions of myself and others in our area to not renew our USPSA memberships ... we will take advantage of the "other options" available to us and shoot IDPA from here I guess GordonB and I consider that to mean you were taking your ball and playing elsewhere. Which makes your topics seem like sniping at USPSA from the sidelines, much like the IDPA "rulebook." I have hated that about the IDPA rulebook ever since I read it. How can anybody put that in there and think it was a good idea? Totally unprofessional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 L-10 has been THE MOST popular division at our monthly club matches for the past 3 or 4 months now. Eliminating it would be yet another nail in the coffin USPSA started to build itself, and is now trying to get rid of. As much as I believe in the power of possitive thought, I just don't see the high cap. magazine banm going away. (Now I'm going to get it) I would love to see the ban go away and never come back, but I am not going to hold my breath. As others have said, let's blow that bridge up when we're on it, or something like that. If you want to shoot a single stack with a dot in Open class, go for it. I know a few people who still do so, though to be honest, usually not with a lot of success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 Although at this time, USPSA is in a decline (both in membership and participation), after competing in USPSA matches for 13 years, I certainley hope that new leadership emerges and saves the sport as I do enjoy shooting USPSA type matches. Would you please tell us where you're getting your information from regarding USPSA declining membership and participation? I believe our current leadership is saving the sport... again, on what do you base this statement? If you enjoy shooting USPSA matches (no type, they either are or are NOT USPSA) then why not continue supporting the organization that developed the sport? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 Limited-10 is here to stay...........NEXT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral404 Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 I started out just a couple of years ago in this sport shooting limited 10. I still enjoy the heck out of my single stack. I have noticed that some of our new members came out of defensive pistol and action pistol before entering any uspsa matches. The single stack was the gun of choice. I agree with the observations that limited 10 is an entry point into the sport. It should stay. Personally, I do not care whether it is single stack or double stack limited 10. I also agree with the recommendation that says 'just leave it alone." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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