JWK Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 A couple of years ago a friend said "Hey, we're shooting IPSC Friday night would you like to go?" I showed up with my P16, a Fobus holster and mag pouch. WHAT A BLAST! I could have taken my 1911, Sig or HK and had just as good a time. This past year I purchased a Edge and all the trimmings. The beauty of L10 and Production is that newbies don't have to buy much to get going; they serve as an inexpensive entry to the world of IPSC. P.S. Most of our clubs new shooters are Production and L10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Limited-10 is here to stay...........NEXT! Tell it like it IS, Brother T! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 I guess I'll throw in my two Lincolns... Matthew. Amen on IDPA being unprofessional. The "rulebook" (a.k.a. If Wilson, Baer or Brown don't make it it's not legal) is a farce. The GAME is just that it's a game. Like a buddy once said. If you're keeping score it's a game not 'practical/tactical training'. As for L-10 and Production. For the record, with the folks that we are getting today, these serve as an excellent platform for new shooters to participate, without perceived intimidation by the race guns. It's cheap to get started and you can be competitive equipment-wise. That being said, off the record, I agree with Chriss. I started shooting with a Springfield Armory .45 and a nylon holster. My reloads took the better part of the day, the gun hammer followed and forget about a decent draw. However, after PRACTICING, not quitting because my ego was bruised by the race guns and saving my pennies, I got my first 'custom gun'. It was the same SA just worked over by a local 'smith. While it was down for work, I ran with a Taurus PT-100. Fixed sights and 10-round mags (same nylon holster). And guess what, because I PRACTICED and paid attention to what was happening, I eaked out occasional wins (ever try to beat Russ Wakida w/ his Open Limcat and you're running a Taurus in a Top-16 shoot-off.....ouch! ). When I got the SA back, I did well at bigger matches, collected stuff of the prize table (holsters, etc.) and built up a high cap limited gun. So on and so on you progress, you get better and you buy more gear, reload ammo, buy new guns, etc. It's a progression. USPSA is the only arm of IPSC that has classes (I'm sure there are more but who knows). Why? Because we need to appeal to each persons fragile sensability. Remember, if you win your class, you didn't win the match! Open-10. WTF?! Open is Open. The only rule is mag length. After that, 'we' appeal to your ingenuity (or stupidy....who knows). In the end, they should stay because they are doing more good than bad. I think they are providing a means for cross-over amongst the shooting sports and are an affordable way to get up and running. I just wish folks would understand that if you've been doing IPSC for a month or a year, you're probably not going to be as good as someone who's been doing it as long but practices more. And they're better, not because of the gun, but because of practice. The only "reduction" towards L-10 that I would make is having it be a tag award (i.e. like LE, Military, Fem, etc.), but that's probably pushing it. My only other wish would be for IDPA and the gun press to give IPSC its due. However, since they are still the press, whether pro or anti-gun, they seem to always find something to make folks get upset about. Like I said, just my two cents. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slughammer Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 I know this is a USPSA discussion, but there are a lot of other sports out there. The Bomar sighted singlestack 1911 in 45 acp is the gun that can play many sports and do them well. I would hope that USPSA would retain a division where likeminded folks like me can come out and play on a level field. I don't see why L10 needs to be labled as an entry level division? Sure, it's a good place for people to start with the equipment they have. I don't remember being required to leave? My 45 still works, I'm not going to be forced to go buy something else, will I?....... Man, I gotta go read the small print! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 The "rulebook" (a.k.a. If Wilson, Baer or Brown don't make it it's not legal) is a farce. Oh, please. I hear this comment, or one like it, WAY too often. Makes me wonder if many people have even read the IDPA Rule Book. In two of the four IDPA divisions - including the most popularr, SSP - Wilson, Baer and Brown don't even make a gun that's legal to use, much less install on it any of their after-market parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 I don't see why L10 needs to be labled as an entry level division? Sure, it's a good place for people to start with the equipment they have. I think the problem is that when people hear "entry level division" they automatically (pun intended) think "kiddie division populated by crappy shooters." That's not what it means. It means it's easy for people who already own a gun to get into without having to buy any - or much - more equipment. That's it. As Lisa Munson once put it to me, "The divisions have to do with equipment, not the shooter's skill set." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted January 24, 2004 Author Share Posted January 24, 2004 I guess I'll throw in my two Lincolns...Matthew. Amen on IDPA being unprofessional. The "rulebook" (a.k.a. If Wilson, Baer or Brown don't make it it's not legal) is a farce. The GAME is just that it's a game. Like a buddy once said. If you're keeping score it's a game not 'practical/tactical training'. As for L-10 and Production. For the record, with the folks that we are getting today, these serve as an excellent platform for new shooters to participate, without perceived intimidation by the race guns. It's cheap to get started and you can be competitive equipment-wise. My only other wish would be for IDPA and the gun press to give IPSC its due. However, since they are still the press, whether pro or anti-gun, they seem to always find something to make folks get upset about. Like I said, just my two cents. Rich The previous poster obviously has no knowledge of IDPA or it's rules. This person states that the gun mags continue to post "negative" topics in regards to USPSA, yet takes his own shot (totally uninformed) at IDPA. In regards to Limited 10 being a "Beginners" division. How ridiculous. Limited 10 was created to provide a division for a person to compete in using current, legally available equipment. If you don't believe this, get the BOD meeting minutes from which this division was created. In looking at recent posts, not only in this forum but also at the USPSA forum, It would appear that the small minority would like to see Production, Limited 10, and Revolver, all thrown into a "Beginners" division. If this happens, IDPA membership will grow again. This clearly demonstrates the lack of vision that's killing USPSA. For what it's worth, USPSA match attendance here in our local area has dropped off significantly over the last two years. Most club's match attendance (based on 4 local clubs) is down at least 40-50%, yet at local IPDA matches, the attendance continues to grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigsaxdog Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 i have to reply, can't help it........too much whining about equipment!!! i know some real good L-10 shooters(i'm trying to be one). they beat limited guys all the time. my buddy beats open guys, good ones, with a 6(!)shot revolver. it's the indian, not the arrow.... i bet leatham and all the big dogs beat all these whiners with makarovs....... it's about the shooting, not what your shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Painting with a pretty broad brush there, Big.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 In looking at recent posts, not only in this forum but also at the USPSA forum, It would appear that the small minority would like to see Production, Limited 10, and Revolver, all thrown into a "Beginners" division. If this happens, IDPA membership will grow again. This clearly demonstrates the lack of vision that's killing USPSA. Last I checked, YOU were the only one advocating getting rid of Lim-10 on this forum. What's up with that??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted January 24, 2004 Author Share Posted January 24, 2004 Shred: My logic in putting up a post regarding eliminating Limited 10 was to check the rationale of people who advocated not starting an Open 10 division as Open 10 should be created for the same reasons Limited 10 was created. This topic quickly produced the results expected as many of the "I've got mine so who cares if they can't get one" shooters quickly responded about how Limited 10 should stay. Then it got very interesting as the direction of the topic changed to "let's get rid of Production, Limited 10, and Revolver divisions, and just dump them into one as we don't shoot in them so who cares". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 I had a long responce all typed out, but then decide to hell with it. It is like we are talking about religion or something. Everyone has their opinion, and as I see it from the past few pages no one is going to change their mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 I would like to know who the revolver shooter is that can beat good Open gunners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 In looking at recent posts, not only in this forum but also at the USPSA forum, It would appear that the small minority would like to see Production, Limited 10, and Revolver, all thrown into a "Beginners" division. If this happens, IDPA membership will grow again. This clearly demonstrates the lack of vision that's killing USPSA. To say that the USPSA have a lack of vison is ridiculous. It seems that you have never talked with MV or any of the Area Directors in USPSA or you would not have made that statement. One of the issues that we face as a sport and organization is the chainging laws and chaning products offered by manufactures. I do not know of a single gun manufacturere, ther than STI OR SVI, that offers a pistol offered that is intended for IPSC Open divsion. They are most often custom ordered. I can name dozens of guns that will fit in Limited, L-10, Production & Revolver that are for sale at my local gun shop, even in California. It is these divsions that are intened to fit a shooters equiment that is new to IPSC. Trying to get teh guy who bought a Glock foir home defense to come out. If you are exposed to IPSC and you find out that to compete you have to wait 6 months to get a gun, you will most likely walk away. On the other hand, if you have a Glock, you are ready to go. Should the entire rule book change because California or Hawaii make hi-cap illegal? Should the USPSA change the divisons becasue of Federal law? What if the laws get overturned, then what? And what about Texas? Should they have to live with different rules becaue of another state? MV and the AD's have to make some very difficult decisions. I think they do a great job. I agree, the divisons separate equipment, not shooting skill. As for the whole IDPA vs IPSC thing, they are both games. Like dodge ball and kick ball. If you can't play nice, go home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Shred: My logic in putting up a post regarding eliminating Limited 10 was to check the rationale of people who advocated not starting an Open 10 division as Open 10 should be created for the same reasons Limited 10 was created. This topic quickly produced the results expected as many of the "I've got mine so who cares if they can't get one" shooters quickly responded about how Limited 10 should stay. Then it got very interesting as the direction of the topic changed to "let's get rid of Production, Limited 10, and Revolver divisions, and just dump them into one as we don't shoot in them so who cares". Who said that? It was obvious what you were trying, but we tried to explain the essential differences between the "need" for Limited-10 and the non-"need" for Open-10 (essential differences: There is a clear and copious demand for Limited-10. There is no mass demand for Open-10, end of story) Widely available preban hi-cap mags represent less than 1/4 of the cost of an Open gun setup. Yes there are states where the shooters are screwed. I'd much rather let them do whatever they can in-state and get them real mags when they reach free territory. Somehow status-quo for Open has worked reasonably well for 9-1/4 years-- why not let it lie until September and see what happens then??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 we tried to explain the essential differences between the "need" for Limited-10 and the non-"need" for Open-10 EXACTLY! Thank you shred! Open-10. WTF?! Open is Open. uscbigdawg, perhaps the name is the problem ... how about a Divison called: Mostly Admissible - or Generally Free ... wait, I know! Unclosed you can add the "dash ten" on the end if you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 I reckon 10 shots is 10 shots no matter how you look at it. IMHO the wide-bodied frames are easier to reload, but that's about the only advantage I can see. You can trick out a single stack with Tungsten guide-rods, recoil masters, fancy-schmancy sights, so it basically comes down to shooter ability. As for it being an "entry-level" class, I would agree with that in some respects, mainly because most new shooters have only basic equipment ie...10rd mags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Why would anyone want to junk L-10? Why would anyone want to start O-10? Why would this dead horse run 3 pages?Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Sorry but this dead horse subject has been running since at least my first day here on the forum 8 months ago! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherErik Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 For what it's worth, USPSA match attendance here in our local area has dropped off significantly over the last two years. Most club's match attendance (based on 4 local clubs) is down at least 40-50%, yet at local IPDA matches, the attendance continues to grow. If that is the case, what are you personally doing to try and increase membership in your area, other than complaining about it? Open 10 is not the awnser. Why should potential new shooter want to buy a scope and a comp to be compeitive in that division when the same gun could be used without modifications in L10. if you want to shoot 10 rounds with an open gun try steel challenge, or move to Hawaii where everyone has to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted January 27, 2004 Author Share Posted January 27, 2004 If that is the case, what are you personally doing to try and increase membership in your area, other than complaining about it? I'm not complaining, just stating the logical facts. We are increasing membership at our local IDPA matches thanks to many of the USPSA issues discussed in this forum. Combining Limited 10, Production, and Revolver (as one forum poster suggested) into one division will certainly help to further increase IDPA membership. I know that sensible BOD members like Gary Stevens will resist any sort of nonsense such as combining the divisions. However, with the recent rule changes, nothing would suprise us anymore. With the additions of divisions such as Tactical Rifle, what's the big deal with Open 10. Why did USPSA need a Tactical Rifle division? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for creating any division that attracts more shooters to the organization. If Tactical Rifle does it, great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 The previous poster obviously has no knowledge of IDPA or it's rules. This person states that the gun mags continue to post "negative" topics in regards to USPSA, yet takes his own shot (totally uninformed) at IDPA. As I'm the previous poster, if you're going to attempt to rebutt my statement, how about saying why I'm uninformed. Making a post where you're basically saying, "Nuh-uh" does really nothing more than making me want to reply with, "Uh-huh". I've shot IDPA and in general know its rules. To be truthful I won my first match (one was enough) I competed in with....my L-10 gun! It was fun, just not very challenging. It was static and regimented. I prefer dynamic and improvisational. I know of IDPA and its rules and appreciate it for what it is. A GAME. Just like I appreciate IPSC for what it is....A GAME! As for gun mags that make negative posts about IPSC, why do you think this Topic on the Forums went for so long: American Handgunner Article I realize my statement about the writing of the rulebook was generalized and apologize for that. I find it discerning though that my STI long dustcover pistol is illegal, and that Ed Brown denies having ever made the Monolith (a statement from them when I called requesting info on it). IPSC has a division for every firearm made (obviously caliber restrictions aside). If you're only response to, "If that is the case, what are you personally doing to try and increase membership in your area, other than complaining about it?," is, "We are increasing membership at our local IDPA matches!," what are you trying to accomplish with this entire post? And another thing, a poster didn't say to combine the divisions, he/she said, if you were going to eliminate one, it would be revolver. Then, combine it with production, etc. However, no where in the post did it state to do so. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Run n Gun Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Not trying to butt in, but Les Baer makes the Monolith not Ed Brown. Just an unrequested interjection… Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Hi Ed, You're right. My fault. I contacted all the guys (Wilson, Ed Brown and Les Baer) on the frame. Guess I got them mixed up. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Hi Ed,You're right. My fault. I contacted all the guys (Wilson, Ed Brown and Les Baer) on the frame. Guess I got them mixed up. Rich Wow.. Hard for Les to deny the Monolith, given he filed two patents on it. I guess he could claim he never actually made any, but I remember pictures in ads in the various gun rags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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