LaRue targets & Flash targets past 400yards

[AlamoShooter]

I like longer shots in a Rifle match /3gun match.

The LaRue event had shots out to 450y, shot after a 50 run to get to the shooting position. = I liked it and I am past 50 years old

I think it would be good to have a Count of how many would like to keep seeing longer shots, so that the match directors do not

Dumb down the stages.

I think it would be better to have the longer shots first instead of last , but still its good

I liked SMM3gun with the target you could get set on before the clock started.

Edited May 11, 2010 by AlamoShooter

[CutterH]

I'm a pretty new shooter and I loved the long range shooting. It definitely requires the shooters to be well-rounded and not just have a quick trigger finger.

[M ammo]

I didn't do well on the two far hangers,,,, on the LaRue match,, but the stage was OK, I should have been able to get them,,, I was shooting low,, and Stopped,,,

I do think 300-400 yard shots are long enough to test a 3 Gun skill set.

that being said the size of the targets comes in to play,, I think no less than a 12 inch plate,,, past 200, for a 3 Gun Match. is too small,,,

A LaRue is a better size at 300 and 400. it is still only 2/3rds the size of a man sized target,,, I don't know how much smaller a target you think you need? The people that have done thier homework will still be rewarded,,, the people that do not,,, get to shoot more ammo..

3 Gun is not a Sniper match, and it is not a find the target match.

It is a shoot the target match. on a timer.

Jim M ammo

[AlamoShooter]

Thats a good point on target size = the Big Brown Dog man had the same point for stage 3 having LaRue targets as the two longest shots and the smaller flash targets closer

At 450 yards the MGM Flash target was just over 2min in size at 10"

The LaRue would have made it more fun to watch the long trarget fall too. No question on the long score

[bigbrowndog]

4 moa no matter the range, as an absolute minimum.

trapr

[outerlimits]

400+ is cool. but if i remember correctly, at the 3 gun nationals in albany a few years ago, we shot flashers up that hill that were close to 360 yds. that little plate really looks small unless you have magnification up the rear.

[Tom Freeman]

For 3-gun, a LaRue past 350-400 is a challenge. We put full size poppers with flashbulbs at 425 every month. You dont have to know your holdovers as well with that tall of a target, but you had better be good at reading the wind.

Past 400 I think a full sized IPSC target is ok out to maybe 550-600. Not a lot of shooters have access to ranges to practice that stuff.

Beyond 600 I think you as a stage designer are losing sight of what you are trying to do. Above all it has to be challenging, and fun.

[ken hebert]

last years RM3G had a full size USPSA at 610yds, and that was do-able. Thats under 4moa at that range... but then again I was using a 4x Meopta.

I do agree with 4moa as a standard, and paint them if possible/feasable. Or a good target backer.

[DocMcG]

I didn't do well on the two far hangers,,,, on the LaRue match,, but the stage was OK, I should have been able to get them,,, I was shooting low,, and Stopped,,,

I do think 300-400 yard shots are long enough to test a 3 Gun skill set.

that being said the size of the targets comes in to play,, I think no less than a 12 inch plate,,, past 200, for a 3 Gun Match. is too small,,,

A LaRue is a better size at 300 and 400. it is still only 2/3rds the size of a man sized target,,, I don't know how much smaller a target you think you need? The people that have done thier homework will still be rewarded,,, the people that do not,,, get to shoot more ammo..

3 Gun is not a Sniper match, and it is not a find the target match.

It is a shoot the target match. on a timer.

Jim M ammo

Hmmmm...... I have heard you say this before Jim. But, I wonder where it was?

Cheers,

Kyle

[FDQ]

I guess Jim needs 2 of the "No Whining" bumper stickers...

FredQ

Edited May 12, 2010 by FDQ

[AlamoShooter]

I guess Jim needs 2 of the "No Whining" bumper stickers...

FredQ

Jim was

Whining all the time he was kicking our butts on the stages.

[M ammo]

Feeling the LOVE! It was not whining,, it was queasiness, , waiting my turn to shoot.

OK,,,, how about that stage 8!

Kyle,,, I try to be consistent,,, about Rifle targets, I also draw from the experience of experienced 3 Gunners, Kurt Miller and Trapr,,,, they have posted some very good feedback on several posts, on Rifle targets... I concur with what they think.. all joking aside these guys know.

[Bryan 45]

Don't forget the iron shooters! While we are few in number, we make up for it in the VOLUME at which we debate!

4 MOA is good. Much over 425 yards becomes an act of futility for 85% of the shooters. I also like what was said about not dumbing-down stages, but if the challenges are not doable by the majority of shooters is it a reasonable test of skills?

I like the physical exertion before the long range targets. By getting your heart beating, targets at 300 become a challenge whereas if you shoot them from prone at the buzzer they are much less-so. Run hard enough and a 12" flasher at 100 isn't big enough!

Edited May 12, 2010 by Bryan 45

[AlamoShooter]

I like what Brian said with a small exception/ clarification 300 and under with a run to pump the heart is fine. My Heart Pumps hard before the Beep at every match no mater the size. shooting one or two guns and a 50 + yard run to get to the longer targets (longer as in over 300 yards) is hard on the Oxygen to the eyes and brain. = its just plain hard for 99% of the shooters to see clearly no mater the age or sight used.

If a shot over 450 yards was a 20 second bonus shot , but a the shooter had to run 50 yards to make it. My Bet is that -zero- top guns would give it a try.

If the shooter could get 20 seconds each for two shots like that side by side for a 40 sec bonus -Maybe- or maybe not.

I like Options in a stage and a match.

It would be a cool if more than one stage had long shots -Say stage 2 & stage 7 so that every squad in the match had a long shot on both days. = That way one windy day would not be a big advantage over the calm day. Every shooter would have long shots on days of equal wind.

[davidwiz]

When I was at the SMM3G in '04, the distance targets were (I think) 10" flashers with a black plastic sheet as a backer. Worked pretty well (until the backer got loose and blew in front of the target).

The worst I experienced was at a local rifle match a few years ago. The area in front of the steel target was loose dirt, and if you shot low, or left or right, a huge cloud of dust would be kicked up and you couldn't see the target at all.

[dt1]

Shots at 400-450yds are cool as long as the pre-registered competitors know what to expect and have the opportunity to prepare. These distances not only challenge shot placement, but require the shooter to read conditions (wind etc) at the range as well.

That said, you certainly don't have to place 2-4moa steel targets at those type distances to challenge a competitor's rifle shooting ability. Much shorter shots can be made challenging by adjusting shooter position and target size.

Think about the rifle shots at Ft. Benning (arguably the most popular 3-gun match on the planet). There's one stage with a flash target or two at 380-400yds. There are also a couple of other stages with shots from 100-150yds that are tougher and more fun (IMHO) due to the stage design.

[Kyle O]

2 Long range shots in the match don't seem unacceptable to me.

I do agree about the wind though. It was not a huge factor at this years Larue, but last year.....

It was blowing 45mph cross the first day, the second day we pulled up and it was dead calm, and I heard shots coming from 1 & 2 and I almost started whining myself.

[3gungal]

I like Options in a stage and a match.

It would be a cool if more than one stage had long shots -Say stage 2 & stage 7 so that every squad in the match had a long shot on both days. = That way one windy day would not be a big advantage over the calm day. Every shooter would have long shots on days of equal wind.

I agree that more long range shots are needed at matches. 2 or 3 stages with targets out to 400+ makes for a challenge. That is not to say you need to have more than a 2 or 3 targets out to that range, but a good mix of short and long shots separates out the hosers. I like to be pushed out of my comfort zone. I pack long and short range ammo because experience has taught me to be prepared, that conditions change, and even when you think you know you don't.

More long range thats my vote

[bigbrowndog]

I think most of you are getting long and precise confused, a precise shot at 200 is just as challenging as one at 400 if the ratio of target size and distance are the same. by having the closer shot you reduce the disadvantage of changing conditions making the shot unfair for some.

A 12" target at 300 is the same size/distance challenge as a 4" target at 100, how many of you would feel a bank of 4" targets at 100 would be difficult after a 50yd jog in August in Raton? Even better, how many of you actually know where to hold for that target? especially if you're running a 300ydish zero.

I am a proponent of 4moa targets, and using positions other than prone to make the shot challenging, try it sometime.

trapr

[M ammo]

I think most of you are getting long and precise confused, a precise shot at 200 is just as challenging as one at 400 if the ratio of target size and distance are the same. by having the closer shot you reduce the disadvantage of changing conditions making the shot unfair for some.

A 12" target at 300 is the same size/distance challenge as a 4" target at 100, how many of you would feel a bank of 4" targets at 100 would be difficult after a 50yd jog in August in Raton? Even better, how many of you actually know where to hold for that target? especially if you're running a 300ydish zero.

I am a proponent of 4moa targets, and using positions other than prone to make the shot challenging, try it sometime.

trapr

I did shoot a match,,, that had 5 inch plates at 200,, it was hard,, but it was good,, it kept you on your toes.. and you had better hope the zero on your rifle,, did not get bumped,,,

if you are running a 300ish zero, you have put some thought in it,,, I would hope you know your holds,

The weather variable,, in a 2 or 3 day match, with a prize table and all, makes me want consistency, so that I know that a particular stage, was the same difficulty for everyone.

[bigbrowndog]

5" plates at 200 is a very good way of completely discouraging new shooters, irons sight shooters, and 1x optic shooters, for a 3 gun match that is a poor decision.

Trapr

I realize this topic is in he precision rifle forum, but it seems that we are talking about 3 gun matches, if I'm wrong, just forget what I said.

Edited May 17, 2010 by bigbrowndog

[M ammo]

5" plates at 200 is a very good way of completely discouraging new shooters, irons sight shooters, and 1x optic shooters, for a 3 gun match that is a poor decision.

Trapr

It was a small match,, the only new shooter was my son Luke,, 13,,, he got all of the rifle shots,,, even on the blind stage,, you are right,, for a newbe,,,, it will,, scare them off..

Edited May 17, 2010 by M ammo

[bunsen27]

I think most of you are getting long and precise confused, a precise shot at 200 is just as challenging as one at 400 if the ratio of target size and distance are the same. by having the closer shot you reduce the disadvantage of changing conditions making the shot unfair for some.

A 12" target at 300 is the same size/distance challenge as a 4" target at 100, how many of you would feel a bank of 4" targets at 100 would be difficult after a 50yd jog in August in Raton? Even better, how many of you actually know where to hold for that target? especially if you're running a 300ydish zero.

I am a proponent of 4moa targets, and using positions other than prone to make the shot challenging, try it sometime.

trapr

I agree with you on the 4 MOA targets as a minimum. I've just started shooting 3-gun this year and started out shooting TI because I prefer them. One of our local 3-gun matches is also just getting started this year and the first match had 10in targets offhand at 100yds and 4in at 100yds off a standing rest. Where I ran into trouble was the 200yd targets were 6in flashers with no backer. I just couldn't get a consistant sight picture, and for those shooting irons a 4MOA target size is about the smallest you can accuartely get a consistant sight picture on. I've sinced switched to a 2x-7x optic and have no issues with the longer range targets. Coincidentally, the most recent match saw larger 8in targets at 200 yds and some very nice backers to add contrast. I may go back to irons next season, but for now the Dark Side (Tactical Optics) has a firm grasp.

[3gungal]

Trapr help me understand something. With smaller targets out to 200 yrds in awkward positions I still am holding on the target to get my hit vs. 300+ now have to dope my sites and calculate conditions. What I am I missing...oh ya hold still. Sight offset is less of an issue under 200 yrds. For me the challenge lies in the POA past 300 yd.

As for new shooters I was one of those once and I had to shoot irons out to 300 yrds, I didn’t get discouraged I got a scope.

[AlamoShooter]

Trapr help me understand something. With smaller targets out to 200 yrds in awkward positions I still am holding on the target to get my hit vs. 300+ now have to dope my sites and calculate conditions. What I am I missing...oh ya hold still. Sight offset is less of an issue under 200 yards. For me the challenge lies in the POA past 300 yd.

As for new shooters I was one of those once and I had to shoot irons out to 300 yards, I didn't get discouraged I got a scope.

The entire reason for the thread was to let shooters that Like having longer shots express /sound off about the desire to shoot them.

We had a thread a few months ago that slanted to the Under 300 yard , but the time the thread was dead all the rifle targets were less than 200 yards so that no one would have to have an accurate rifle , or accurate amoe , or experience , or the ability to read a Ballistic table.

A small target at 100 yards or 90 yards is not the same . I spent years shooting at a 1.5" wide target at 90 yards in STC Shooting at a 400 yard 16" X 18" has more satisfaction to it. Or in other words , " I want opportunity to miss longer shots"

It was cool when the flash went off on the hill at SMM3g

A small close target is allmost the same as long shot at a larger target, AND ! = kissing an ugly girl is the same as kissing a good looking one if you close your eyes,

I would not know but that is what I heard someone say.

Edited May 18, 2010 by AlamoShooter