landshark45 Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I agree with smokin. Why limit ourselves to shorter distances when the capability is there to go beyond 300. Just because some shooters don't like it or can't do it doesn't mean we should stop. It will make is all better operators and improve our short game if we can clean up everything out to 500+. Just think how easy those 300yd shots will be if we can be confident at twice the distance. 600yds is practical for 3gun. It evens the playing field for technique to trump race guns and fancy equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rboyes Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Long range rifle always makes matches more enjoyable for me too. I've only shot 1 major match: 2011 Fallen Brethren, and the long rifle stage (#9) was by far the most fun for me. An aspect of long range rifle I like isn't necessarily that the target is x yards away and y inches in size, but rather that it adds another element of thinking into the game based upon said target's distance, size, elemental conditions, and time constraints. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landshark45 Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Well said Rich. Perhaps for myself slowing down and thinking is one of the hardest things to do in 3gun and long range targets force us to slow down and read every shot. Even if from the outside looking in it still seems fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Beyond just thinking about ballistics, wind drift, etc, it forces you to focus on good fundamentals in shooting. If you haven't built a good position, you won't be able to spot your impacts with your optic as the rifle recoils. If you tend to slap your trigger, your "1/2" MOA AR will likely miss. Speed is still part of the game, but its now just coupled with precision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landshark45 Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 PRECISION... adding to the practicality of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto_Shooter Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) Hate to break up this love fest between Smokin and landshark45, but there are some who actually disagree with you and feel that 600 yard targets are not "practical" (whatever that means) in the game of 3-gun. I appreciate and enjoy the occasional target at 500-600 yards (preferably a bonus target if over 500), as long as the target is clearly visible to the naked eye and doesn't rely on RO interpretatation (in other words, the target should fall down when hit). Too often we have LR targets not visible to the naked eye (especially given changing environmental conditions) OR subject to RO's calling hits (ROs with varying degrees of vision, ability, and precision). Just because you've got a mile of land at your range doesn't mean you have to shoot a mile. Edited January 6, 2012 by Fullauto_Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M ammo Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) Hate to break up this love fest between Smokin and landshark45, but there are some who actually disagree with you and feel that 600 yard targets are not "practical" (whatever that means) in the game of 3-gun. I appreciate and enjoy the occasional target at 500-600 yards (preferably a bonus target if over 500), as long as the target is clearly visible to the naked eye and doesn't rely on RO interpretatation (in other words, the target should fall down when hit). Too often we have LR targets not visible to the naked eye (especially given changing environmental conditions) OR subject to RO's calling hits (ROs with varying degrees of vision, ability, and precision). Just because you've got a mile of land at your range doesn't mean you have to shoot a mile. What he says! and being an Old Artillery Guy,, you could shoot 155mm arty at 600 and be safe. Yes we need artillery in 3 GUN! Edited January 6, 2012 by M ammo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1chota Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Hate to break up this love fest between Smokin and landshark45, but there are some who actually disagree with you and feel that 600 yard targets are not "practical" (whatever that means) in the game of 3-gun. I appreciate and enjoy the occasional target at 500-600 yards (preferably a bonus target if over 500), as long as the target is clearly visible to the naked eye and doesn't rely on RO interpretatation (in other words, the target should fall down when hit). Too often we have LR targets not visible to the naked eye (especially given changing environmental conditions) OR subject to RO's calling hits (ROs with varying degrees of vision, ability, and precision). Just because you've got a mile of land at your range doesn't mean you have to shoot a mile. AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! HALLELUJAH! AMEN! I do believe a shooter must be able to see the doggone target with the naked eye at all times of the day. Be that through wonderful backers or painting. We are playing a game. anybody who tries to put tactical on this needs to stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 double :P I cant wait for the over 1,200 yards shots at Rocky Mountain 3 gun this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landshark45 Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Nnnoooooooooo!!!!!! I can't see it with my naked eye! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 JJ told me that he was going to have a 1200 yard off hand shot at an ordinary chicken egg. And that Mr. Hawkins would yell at you until you hit it or broke down and quit, leaving the range in tears. He said something about "Humpty Dumpty"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landshark45 Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 J frame range... Let's do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 JJ told me that he was going to have a 1200 yard off hand shot at an ordinary chicken egg. And that Mr. Hawkins would yell at you until you hit it or broke down and quit, leaving the range in tears. He said something about "Humpty Dumpty"? What have you done???? I said, that wouldn't be 4MOA, it's like 1/6 MOA long ways, and JJ says, "Don't worry, you'll be able to see it with the naked eye, I'm going to put a bright, but small light on it with a contrasting backer, It'll be a small, but very bright light!" I said "who's going to replace the bulb?" He Said "Somebody's already got to replace the egg." I said, "probably not because Scott would just be making all the shooters cry!" Then he went on about having the egg dangling from a 10 foot string so it would move nicely in the breeze.! I repeat: What have you done??? He doesn't need ideas like this in his head!!!!! You think it's absurd, and JJ tries to figure out a way to make it work! Good grief! If we have a long egg shot this year, I'm coming after you!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1chota Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 JJ: what about using the San Angelo bridge? that wiggly @#$%%^& is something to shoot off of. There you go Denise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwfuhrman Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 IMO anything past 350 should be bigger than the typical Flash target. We use at our matches at 100 to 150 yards Auto Poppers, then anything past 150 is a flash target. When shooting at home, anything past 400 I switch from my 8in AR500 to the 2/3 IPSC AR500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunsen27 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Still agree with 4 MOA and keeping under 400yds for 3 gun. However, here is s match that has sprung up locally which is best described as six LR 3gun stages turned up to 11. Next match is end of April if anybody is interested. Designated Marksman match Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) I think having one or two targets under 4 moa makes a more balanced match. If all the targets are easy to hit then its just a race. These matches should be about speed and accuracy. A friend of mine who sets up half the stages at the matches we hold argues with me on this all the time. He makes some great fun hoser stages that are fun and I like them. But I think you also need to have some challenging shots for accuracy as well. Like I said if you make it so every person at the match can hit every target it becomes just a speed contest. Pat Edited February 5, 2012 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkboy Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I like having longer shots at a match and agree that backers and 3 to 4 moa is neccesary to keep the match "fun" for all involved. But if I could put a target out further than 400 yards I probably would. In our monthly match our 400 yard 12" plate is a bonus target. The targets that mess with the shooters alot are a 10" plate at 280 yards with a 8" plate at 200 yards that look roughly side by side. The optical illusion makes them look like the same distance. Even though everyone knows the distances it still causes misses. As big brown dog said, it can be challenging at closer distances. But the voices in my head always want more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M ammo Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 It has probably been said,,, Target backers!!!!!! They need to be BIG and in good condition. for all shooters. Playing find the Target, is not 3 Gun,, that is another Game. (I did that game for a living for 20 years) very different. All shooters, should be able to find and see the targets, so it is a Shooting game. as fair as it can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) Like I said if you make it so every person at the match can hit every target it becomes just a speed contest. Pat REALLY!!!! is that one of those statements you wish you hadn't said???? First of all it is "impossible" to ensure that every person can HIT every target, conditions and ability take care of that issue. Being able to SEE that target consistently throughout the day under ALL expected conditions is what makes for a good stage set up. Second, I guarantee I can give you a 4moa, target that you will shoot multiple times at before hitting, and you can see it plain as day, and it will be inside 400yds. Finally, the game we play is a speed match,..............its measured in time, fastest time wins. When you figure out how to award the winner based on something that time isn't a part of, i'd like to know. Trapr Edited February 8, 2012 by bigbrowndog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) Like I said if you make it so every person at the match can hit every target it becomes just a speed contest. Pat REALLY!!!! is that one of those statements you wish you hadn't said???? First of all it is "impossible" to ensure that every person can HIT every target, conditions and ability take care of that issue. Being able to SEE that target consistently throughout the day under ALL expected conditions is what makes for a good stage set up. Second, I guarantee I can give you a 4moa, target that you will shoot multiple times at before hitting, and you can see it plain as day, and it will be inside 400yds. Finally, the game we play is a speed match,..............its measured in time, fastest time wins. When you figure out how to award the winner based on something that time isn't a part of, i'd like to know. Trapr No disrespect intended but my understanding is the game is about speed and accuracy and to a degree power (major minor). (I prefer USPSA scoring to IMGA which is more slanted to speed vs accuracy in my experience). I am not saying you should make the entire match about shooting precision but one or two shots does make it more interesting in my opinion. I also agree that you should use backers so the targets are visible for all shooters. I also don't think that the entire match sould be about shooting from akward positions. Basically I think the match should be well rounded and test both speed and accuracy equally. You should have some 50 yard pistol shots, some longer range slug shots and some long range rifle shots or smaller rifle targets at shorter range. I understand that its harder for those in limited with irons or 1x optics on smaller targets but you are only competing with others in your division not against those in other divisons. I also don't understand why people get upset when this topic comes up. What has happened at previous matches that make this such a contensious issue? (Nevermind on this question I reviewed Fullauto's post and I can see how too small a target can be a nightmare for the RO to call as hit) Pat Edited February 8, 2012 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) The whole you're "only" competing against others in your own division is..................wait for it........................CRAP!!!! its an excuse!!!! Most of us compete with ourselves, and we tend to compare ourselves to EVERYONE at the match. look at it from this viewpoint, the flipside, now Kurt and I have discussed this, but we just can't bring ourselves to sink to this level. what if the match was set up to favor non-magnified/iron sight guns. the optic guys get to shoot at brown paper on brown backgrounds, camoflaged steel, bright lights shined at your faces, oily water sprayed into your scope lenses before the stage started so you couldn't sufficiently see or clean your optics, 1 moa targets, but the other guys get to shoot more sane target presentations, and when they walk off the course of fire they're smiling and high fiving, and enjoying the hell out of the match, would you come back?????????????????????? Well you're just competing against the others in your division!!!! you all had the same conditions!!!!!! it was fair for everyone!!!!! Would you really be happy with the outcome????? Just because the iron sight divisions attract smaller numbers doesn't mean they paid less to be there, the entry fees are the same, We should all have as fair a chance at seeing targets as everyone else!!! if you as a MD do not want to do that, then don't recognize the division!!! or charge less for it up front and let everyone know, "hey, we're going to not paint targets and we're going to hide them in shadows, and make them really small, and bla bla bla!!! its all excuses!!! Besides this is the precision rifle topic and you should have scope on your rifle oh and USPSA hit/factor scoring does reward speed higher than accuracy, trapr Edited February 8, 2012 by bigbrowndog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) The whole you're "only" competing against others in your own division is..................wait for it........................CRAP!!!! its an excuse!!!! Most of us compete with ourselves, and we tend to compare ourselves to EVERYONE at the match. look at it from this viewpoint, the flipside, now Kurt and I have discussed this, but we just can't bring ourselves to sink to this level. what if the match was set up to favor non-magnified/iron sight guns. the optic guys get to shoot at brown paper on brown backgrounds, camoflaged steel, bright lights shined at your faces, oily water sprayed into your scope lenses before the stage started so you couldn't sufficiently see or clean your optics, 1 moa targets, but the other guys get to shoot more sane target presentations, and when they walk off the course of fire they're smiling and high fiving, and enjoying the hell out of the match, would you come back?????????????????????? Well you're just competing against the others in your division!!!! you all had the same conditions!!!!!! it was fair for everyone!!!!! Would you really be happy with the outcome????? Just because the iron sight divisions attract smaller numbers doesn't mean they paid less to be there, the entry fees are the same, We should all have as fair a chance at seeing targets as everyone else!!! if you as a MD do not want to do that, then don't recognize the division!!! or charge less for it up front and let everyone know, "hey, we're going to not paint targets and we're going to hide them in shadows, and make them really small, and bla bla bla!!! its all excuses!!! Besides this is the precision rifle topic and you should have scope on your rifle oh and USPSA hit/factor scoring does reward speed higher than accuracy, trapr I can see your point with the targets not getting painted or having a backer. I just like the idea of a few harder shots but when I think of it 4 moa is not that bad for a challenge as a Pesky popper at 100 yards is only 4 moa wide and they are a challenge depending on the firing position. No hard feelings. Hit factor does reward speed a bit more than accuracy but it does reward accuracy more than IMGA 2 shots anywhere on brown. At the matches I host I use IDPA style scoreing (.5 second for a C/B hit 1.5 seconds for a D hit, -2.5 for a miss. -5 seconds for a fail to netralize etc) I believe it rewards accuracy more and is faster to score than USPSA hit factor but it is slower than IMGA. Pat Edited February 9, 2012 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 As I have not seen any paper past 50 yards in any 3 gun matches that I have been to in the past few years, it does not matter what scoring system is in place as it relates to long rifle shots. Let's be clear, we are talking about steel. The 4 MOA target that is being advocated would be a skinny Sammy at 100 yards, a 6 inch plate at 150 and an 8 inch plate at 200. I have seen literally thousands of rounds sent down range failing to neutralize these exact targets. There is plenty of challenge to be had shooting a plate rack at 150 yards or skinnys at a 100, and an 8" plate at 200 will eat the lunch of many shooters. At nationals last year there was a stage with 3 or four Larue targets that where not over 300 yards away and depending on the light where unable to be found with binoculars! Our entire squad spent the whole walk through trying to even locate the targets! Fortunately the light changed and we where able to locate MOST of them just before the firsts shooter took the line. A Larue is a lot bigger than 4 MOA, had those targets been 6" plates they would not have been hit unless by accident even by the guys using optics. There are plenty of sniper matches, and they are fun to shoot, but thy are not three gun, and three gun should not be a sniper match. Mixing the two is a disservice to both types of match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M ammo Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 The whole you're "only" competing against others in your own division is..................wait for it........................CRAP!!!! its an excuse!!!! Most of us compete with ourselves, and we tend to compare ourselves to EVERYONE at the match. look at it from this viewpoint, the flipside, now Kurt and I have discussed this, but we just can't bring ourselves to sink to this level. what if the match was set up to favor non-magnified/iron sight guns. the optic guys get to shoot at brown paper on brown backgrounds, camoflaged steel, bright lights shined at your faces, oily water sprayed into your scope lenses before the stage started so you couldn't sufficiently see or clean your optics, 1 moa targets, but the other guys get to shoot more sane target presentations, and when they walk off the course of fire they're smiling and high fiving, and enjoying the hell out of the match, would you come back?????????????????????? Well you're just competing against the others in your division!!!! you all had the same conditions!!!!!! it was fair for everyone!!!!! Would you really be happy with the outcome????? Just because the iron sight divisions attract smaller numbers doesn't mean they paid less to be there, the entry fees are the same, We should all have as fair a chance at seeing targets as everyone else!!! if you as a MD do not want to do that, then don't recognize the division!!! or charge less for it up front and let everyone know, "hey, we're going to not paint targets and we're going to hide them in shadows, and make them really small, and bla bla bla!!! its all excuses!!! Besides this is the precision rifle topic and you should have scope on your rifle oh and USPSA hit/factor scoring does reward speed higher than accuracy, trapr Trapr!!!!! """"" camoflaged steel, bright lights shined at your faces, """"""oily water spray,,, """"" Do you have the recipe for the oil and water spray? is it also good on salad. maybe adding getting hit with sticks! :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now