USPSA Rules over clubs rules for safety?

[colt]

At a match today , someone drove the popper down with 3 or 4 shots. Someone from the club said that its a club rule that there is no driving steel down. Someone else said that there is no rule like that in USPSA and USPSA rules supersede club rules.

There building a new elementary school and a IV Tech school less that a mile from my club and I discourage driving steel down so not to have a bullet land on the schools. If it comes to it can the club make a rule to discourage it.

In time we will have to replace them with forward falling steel.

Brent

[NMBOpen]

USPSA is an activity allowed to use the local range facilities. If local safety considerations are not met, then the USPSA activity may lose its guest privileges at the range. In short, local safety rules can override/limit guest activity rules.

[mda]

Switch to forward falling poppers or provide covers over the popper. We had to do this at our club for the same reasons.

MDA

[smokshwn]

Given the proximity of most ranges to developed areas it really amazes me that USPSA hasn't addressed the need of forward falling poppers. At the very least setting up some type of criteria for a phase in. Essentially with rearward falling poppers and multiple shots we know projectiles are leaving the range. It would seem prudent to get on the front end of any potential problems.

Edited May 3, 2010 by smokshwn

[colt]

Switch to forward falling poppers . We had to do this at our club for the same reasons.

MDA

Thats what I think we will do but it will take some time to switch them over. The school not opening till next year.

Thanks Brent

[SmittyFL]

In the mean time, just turn your regular poppers around backwards. Voila....forward falling poppers.

[mhs]

3.3?

[Merlin Orr]

IMO - Rear falling poppers are not safe and are a liability issue for anyone who continues to use them.

One bullet leaving the range could lead to the closing of a club........... It seems that even the most trivial things (and that is not someone or something getting hit by an errant bullet) can lead to lawsuits and monetary judgments. Most clubs could/would be bankrupted by legal fees if they were taken to court.

My .02

[wide45]

In the mean time, just turn your regular poppers around backwards. Voila....forward falling poppers.

Not so much. You will find that a properly timed second shot to a turned around popper can cause it to stay standing.

You are better off with no poppers.

[Tom Mainus]

We started switching our poppers over to forward falling 2 years ago. All

moving targets are only activated by a FF popper. It is a match DQ to double

tap any steel at our club. We are surrounded by subdivisions, we have to be

careful that we don't have any rounds leaving the range.

Tom

[smokshwn]

IMO - Rear falling poppers are not safe and are a liability issue for anyone who continues to use them.

One bullet leaving the range could lead to the closing of a club........... It seems that even the most trivial things (and that is not someone or something getting hit by an errant bullet) can lead to lawsuits and monetary judgments. Most clubs could/would be bankrupted by legal fees if they were taken to court.

My .02

Precisely my thoughts, and potentially even worse as it could be argued that we are well aware of the risk of that projectile leaving the range, rather than the odd projectile that may have impacted some unseen obstacle in the berm.

Edited May 3, 2010 by smokshwn

[racerba]

To answer the original question, local club rules over-rides USPSA rules.

[smokshwn]

In the mean time, just turn your regular poppers around backwards. Voila....forward falling poppers.

Not so much. You will find that a properly timed second shot to a turned around popper can cause it to stay standing.

You are better off with no poppers.

No so much it is pretty easy to weld in a stop on the front end to prevent what you describe and to set the popper such that multiple hits simply delay its fall.

[Flexmoney]

USPSA is an activity allowed to use the local range facilities. If local safety considerations are not met, then the USPSA activity may lose its guest privileges at the range. In short, local safety rules can override/limit guest activity rules.

Well...not really. The flip side of that works too.

To run an USPSA match, you agree to run them under the USPSA rule book. There are no local rules...EXCEPT...with specific approval from the USPSA President.

3.3 Applicability of Rules:

USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without the express consent of the President of USPSA.

[Skizeks]

At a match today , someone drove the popper down with 3 or 4 shots. Someone from the club said that its a club rule that there is no driving steel down. Someone else said that there is no rule like that in USPSA and USPSA rules supersede club rules.

There building a new elementary school and a IV Tech school less that a mile from my club and I discourage driving steel down so not to have a bullet land on the schools. If it comes to it can the club make a rule to discourage it.

In time we will have to replace them with forward falling steel.

Brent

3.3 Applicability of Rules:

USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host organizations

may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal

precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not

in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without

the express consent of the President of USPSA

[wide45]

In the mean time, just turn your regular poppers around backwards. Voila....forward falling poppers.

Not so much. You will find that a properly timed second shot to a turned around popper can cause it to stay standing.

You are better off with no poppers.

No so much it is pretty easy to weld in a stop on the front end to prevent what you describe and to set the popper such that multiple hits simply delay its fall.

[Jim Norman]

Flex is correct, but does anyone think that USPSA would over rule a safety situation?

Remember, USPSA rules may run the match, but it is not their range. If we decide that we must use a sheild, FF Poppers 15 yards for steel etc or there will not be a match would USPSA over rule us and lose a match. Now, if we said no pistol steel under 100 yards, then the club would be out of order, better they just say no steel.

What is always needed is that uncommon faculty, Common Sense.

Jim

[George Jones]

To answer the original question, local club rules over-rides USPSA rules.

Oversimplifying the situation, Bob.

USPSA allows limited variables when it concerns safety rules. For example: 10.4.1 (that's how an indoor range could specify that hitting a side wall is an AD).

This allowance does not imply that clubs can do everything they wish without specific approval. And that's where 3.3 comes into play.

To add to some other common statements concerning club authority to apply "local" safety rules:

A club saying it's a DQ for double tapping a popper is (IMO) violating the rules. Either make them forward falling (where a double tap is highly unlikely to leave the range), or don't use poppers if the problem is that severe. It should not be on the shoulders of the shooters.

Neither should it be the shooter's problem if a club wants steel further than the minimum 23 feet. Simply build the stages that way, but the club cannot apply a DQ for shooting closer than their self-imposed limit.

[Carlos]

IMO - Rear falling poppers are not safe and are a liability issue for anyone who continues to use them.

One bullet leaving the range could lead to the closing of a club........... It seems that even the most trivial things (and that is not someone or something getting hit by an errant bullet) can lead to lawsuits and monetary judgments. Most clubs could/would be bankrupted by legal fees if they were taken to court.

My .02

Agree 100%. Merlin is, I believe out in Texas. I also believe that his state is known for its wide-open expanses of land. But, even Texas is changing.

Here in the built-up mid Atlantic, USPSA ranges invariably have neighbors within a bullet's range - which is why a shot over the berm is DQ of the most serious type. Further, bullets landing on adjacent property HAVE caused serious problems for a number of ranges I can think of around here.

How far will a deflected bullet travel? I do not know, but any distance beyond the berm is unacceptable.

The simple answer is that all falling poppers should be replaced with forward falling poppers as soon as it is possible (I realize that it might not be a financial "possibility" for all clubs to replace every popper right now - but WHEN replacement times comes, buy the right poppers).

[MVZ]

Conversion kits are available to change old rear falling poppers to foreward falling. takes about 4 minuets each and work for both pepper poppers and US Poppers

MVZ

[Matt Cheely]

Follow USPSA rules, or don't call it a USPSA match. But I agree that it is dangerous to drive down poppers.

[racerba]

Oversimplifying the situation, Bob.

Agreed...

[Jaxshooter]

If the range where you hold your match requires a specific rule that does not comply with the USPSA rules, write a letter to MV explaining the reason for the local rule. Get an exception from him to cover all USPSA matches held at that range. I am sure he would allow it rather than not holding sanctioned matches at that range. ( Loss of revenue if not a USPSA Sanctioned Match)

[aztecdriver]

IMO, George has got it. Not trying to minimize this issue in the least, but let's consider the implications on the USPSA rules for the match for an second.

Rule 1.1.5 states: Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

We know from 4.3.1.5 that steel must fall to score. Let's take an example where someone engages a popper and breaks a shot low - they realize it was a bad shot and immediately breaks another better aimed shot to hit the calibration zone. I have trained myself to call my shots, not wait for the popper to fall or listen for the "ding". In this situation, I'm not driving the popper over but making up for a shot I've determined to be low. I did this at Area 6 on Stage 6. Would the popper have fallen had I waited? possibly but I know the shot was half way down the arm when I broke it so I made it up. In this situation, would this be a DQ at your range?

Let's take into account 2.1.2 into this discussion as well.

2.1.2 Safe Angles of Fire – Courses of fire must always be constructed taking into account safe angles of fire. Consideration must be given to safe target and frame construction and the angle of any possible ricochets. Where appropriate the physical dimensions and suitability of backstops and side berms must be determined as part of the construction process.

I would consider the angle of a legitimately available shot on a falling popper an angle to consider, as I believe the concern is that a backward falling partially knocked down popper will allow a ricochet to skip off of it and out of the range. Under USPSA rules, that target is still available and can be engaged. If the local club has determined that engaging poppers in that manner is not safe, then offering the course of fire with the possibility violates 2.1.2.

Another situation which you want to avoid is having a guest USPSA shooter do exactly this. Some people think it's acceptable just to tell people in the shooters meeting, but in the advent of a match dq that's not substantiated in the USPSA rules, you are leaving open the door to an arbitration. Ultimately, the argument will be that the stage is illegal under 2.1.2 and 1.1.5.

I wholeheartedly agree that clubs have great issues to deal with in protecting themselves. We have to protect ourselves, and our affiliate clubs to continue the growth of the sport - and continue to have these wonderful places for training ourselves and mentoring our youth. I don't begrudge clubs having the need for putting these requirements in place as a general practice. We just need to make them fit the USPSA rules in order to have USPSA matches. As people have mentioned - forward falling steel, doghouses over the steel, different types of activators, etc., can all be used to fulfill the requirements until you can replace or convert the steel.

[Singlestack]

Another option is to give the shooter something else to shoot at while they wait for the popper to fall. I'll drive one down any time I have to wait for it to fall.