Half cock or fully decocked for production division?

[Philo_Beddoe]

I shoot a 75b in production division for USPSA. I always just lower the hammer to the half cock notch, is that legal? Or do I have to completely lower the hammer?

Thanks.

[Wideload]

I shoot a 75b in production division for USPSA. I always just lower the hammer to the half cock notch, is that legal? Or do I have to completely lower the hammer?

Thanks.

All the way down unless you have a decocker like a 75BD or SP01 Tac.

[Philo_Beddoe]

I shoot a 75b in production division for USPSA. I always just lower the hammer to the half cock notch, is that legal? Or do I have to completely lower the hammer?

Thanks.

All the way down unless you have a decocker like a 75BD or SP01 Tac.

Ok if it has to be fully de-cocked, then does the safety have to be on at the start? The safety really does not go on too well when the gun is fully de-cocked.

[eerw]

gun has to start in fully decocked position. Safety does not need to be on.

[Nik Habicht]

I shoot a 75b in production division for USPSA. I always just lower the hammer to the half cock notch, is that legal? Or do I have to completely lower the hammer?

Thanks.

All the way down unless you have a decocker like a 75BD or SP01 Tac.

Ok if it has to be fully de-cocked, then does the safety have to be on at the start? The safety really does not go on too well when the gun is fully de-cocked.

Safety needs to be on only if the hammer is cocked -- i.e. a 1911 (cocked and locked) or if you wish to shoot the CZ 75 in Limited -- you've got the option of starting cocked and locked -- and if you choose that option you must apply the safety before holstering.

In production you've got to start hammer down. If your gun has a decocker, you must use that, and start from whatever position it leaves the hammer in after activation. If your gun doesn't have a decocker, you need to carefully manually decock via trigger pull, lowering the hammer all the way down. In either case, there's no requirement to engage a safety....

The relevant rules are in section 8.1 of the rulebook....

[Vlad]

Nik is correct, and having shot a CZ for years that rule is kinda stupid, but it is the "law". Actually, I don't only think the rule is stupid I also think it is a bit dangerous because you are dropping the hammer on a firing pin that the firing pin safety disengaged, where manually decocking to half cock can be done safer, as you can let go of the trigger as soon as the hammer moves.

On the other hand I think USPSA has enough rules (and divisions) aimed narrowly at one type of gun or another so I'll rather have this as a necessary evil instead of a rule book the size of a Websters Dictionary.

[PCC-1]

I actually sent a question about this concerning a GP 6 to NROI. the reply from John Amidon was that as long as the first shot was from a double action trigger pull "half cock" would be complying with the spirit of the rule. I will try to find his reply and really post it later.

[PCC-1]

Off topic... here is the response i got back from Amidon and the question i posed to NROI.

If safe mode makes the first shot double action, it will be in line of the purpose of the ruling, as single action only is not allowed in Production.

John

From: B.D. Martin [mailto:bmartin@pcctactical.com]

Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 10:26 AM

To: dnroi@uspsa.org

Subject: "Safety Position"???

page 75 states for Production "Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal"

Question: The Owners manual for the STI GP6 refers to a "Safety mode" where the hammer is not all the way down resting on the firing pin stop and not the firing pin itself. If we require a shooter to start from a 100% down postition and an accident occurs, such as a dropped gun with an AD and injuries, are we opening ourselves up for legal liability by not allowing him to have his gun in "safety mode" as per the manufacturer? The GP6 does not have a decocker as in the CZ noted above and must be manually brought down. The safety mode is what most people i beleive call "half cock" or "safe cock". Do we allow them to have the gun in "safety mode" or do we force them to have it "totally down" unless that is where the decocker brings it to???

Edited April 2, 2010 by PCC-1

[Albert]

osted 12 February 2010 - 07:53 PM Off topic... here is the response i got back from Amidon and the question i posed to NROI. If safe mode makes the first shot double action, it will be in line of the purpose of the ruling, as single action only is not allowed in Production From: B.D. Martin[mailto:bmartin@pcctactical.com Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 10:26 AM To: dnroi@uspsa.org Subject: "Safety Position"??? page 75 states for Production "Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal" Question: The Owners manual for the STI GP6 refers to a "Safety mode" where the hammer is not all the way down resting on the firing pin stop and not the firing pin itself. If we require a shooter to start from a 100% down postition and an accident occurs, such as a dropped gun with an AD and injuries, are we opening ourselves up for legal liability by not allowing him to have his gun in "safety mode" as per the manufacturer? The GP6 does not have a decocker as in the CZ noted above and must be manually brought down. The safety mode is what most people beleive call "half cock" or "safe cock". Do we allow them to have the gun in "safety mode" or do we force them to have it "totally down" unless that is where the decocker brings it to??? Deon Martin USPSA, IDPA, FLORIDA LEO M&P 9, 9L, GLock 22, 26, 20, 17, 19, 2 Saiga 12, H&K 91, BM AR-15 Beretta Extrema 2 http://www.youtube.com/user/bmartin

That's an interesting point you brought up that is derived directly from a manufacturer. I personally don't believe it's that big a deal to start from the half cock notch that some prefer to do with the manual safety CZs versus the decocker equipped. I've also heard the argument from a top shooter in our area that setting the hammer to the half cock position is safer. That shooter now sets it down all the way to rest on the hammer, but there isn't a huge advantage starting from either point, it's still a first shot in double action.

-Albert

[SDM]

Off topic... here is the response i got back from Amidon and the question i posed to NROI.

If safe mode makes the first shot double action, it will be in line of the purpose of the ruling, as single action only is not allowed in Production.

John

From: B.D. Martin [mailto:bmartin@pcctactical.com]

Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 10:26 AM

To: dnroi@uspsa.org

Subject: "Safety Position"???

page 75 states for Production "Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal"

Question: The Owners manual for the STI GP6 refers to a "Safety mode" where the hammer is not all the way down resting on the firing pin stop and not the firing pin itself. If we require a shooter to start from a 100% down postition and an accident occurs, such as a dropped gun with an AD and injuries, are we opening ourselves up for legal liability by not allowing him to have his gun in "safety mode" as per the manufacturer? The GP6 does not have a decocker as in the CZ noted above and must be manually brought down. The safety mode is what most people i beleive call "half cock" or "safe cock". Do we allow them to have the gun in "safety mode" or do we force them to have it "totally down" unless that is where the decocker brings it to???

I don't see anything pertaining to this on the NROI page of the website. Am I missing something or do guns without decockers still have to be fully decocked?

[beltjones]

John is out of his mind with that email. Some rules get a 100% literal interpretation, others get a "spirit of the rule" interpretation. The rule literally says "fully decocked." What else could that mean but fully decocked? Half cocked, by definition, is not fully decocked. And yet we get a "spirit of the rule" email from DNROI. As ROs this is an important issue because we need to apply the rule fairly from shooter to shooter, stage to stage, match to match. Letting one shooter start from half cock and forcing others to start from fully decocked does not give everyone the same challenge on every stage.

[CZinSC]

John is out of his mind with that email. Some rules get a 100% literal interpretation, others get a "spirit of the rule" interpretation. The rule literally says "fully decocked." What else could that mean but fully decocked? Half cocked, by definition, is not fully decocked. And yet we get a "spirit of the rule" email from DNROI. As ROs this is an important issue because we need to apply the rule fairly from shooter to shooter, stage to stage, match to match. Letting one shooter start from half cock and forcing others to start from fully decocked does not give everyone the same challenge on every stage.

Couldn't agree more. Don't put "fully decocked" in the rule book if sometimes you can go to half cock. Until I see it in writing in a ruling or in the rules itself, I will stick with fully decocking, as I always do with my SP01.

My two cents, they should allow the half cock. Less of a chance of the hammer slipping and AD'ing, plus you still get the double action pull. But again, until that is made a rule, it clearly states what you have to do....fully decock.

[beltjones]

John is out of his mind with that email. Some rules get a 100% literal interpretation, others get a "spirit of the rule" interpretation. The rule literally says "fully decocked." What else could that mean but fully decocked? Half cocked, by definition, is not fully decocked. And yet we get a "spirit of the rule" email from DNROI. As ROs this is an important issue because we need to apply the rule fairly from shooter to shooter, stage to stage, match to match. Letting one shooter start from half cock and forcing others to start from fully decocked does not give everyone the same challenge on every stage.

Couldn't agree more. Don't put "fully decocked" in the rule book if sometimes you can go to half cock. Until I see it in writing in a ruling or in the rules itself, I will stick with fully decocking, as I always do with my SP01.

My two cents, they should allow the half cock. Less of a chance of the hammer slipping and AD'ing, plus you still get the double action pull. But again, until that is made a rule, it clearly states what you have to do....fully decock.

And I totally agree with you, sir. Half cock, if feasible, should be the rule. Sigs decock to half cock. CZs with decockers decock to halfcock. I love Shadows, and I have one myself. I compete these days with a G34, but if I compete with my Shadow under the current rules I'll fully decock because that's what it says in the rule book. That's not my interpretation, that's what it literally says.

[sofong]

, , ,

And I totally agree with you, sir. Half cock, if feasible, should be the rule. Sigs decock to half cock. CZs with decockers decock to halfcock. I love Shadows, and I have one myself. I compete these days with a G34, but if I compete with my Shadow under the current rules I'll fully decock because that's what it says in the rule book. That's not my interpretation, that's what it literally says.

We've been screwing up then, hmmm. I'll have to ask my ROs and Match Director. I shoot a CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow Target which does not have the firing pin safety (the only 75 without) hammer safety only and have been starting cocked and locked and therefore single action. Lowering the hammer on a round, even to half cock position, is just waiting for an eventual thumb slip, AD and resultant DQ. A dropped pistol is dangerous with a safety on, hammer down just appears to be trouble looking for a place to happen.

I'll write them now and post their responses.

[Edit]: Now I'm really confused by reading the rules are different for SA and DA and the Shadow Target does both. Cocked and locked is what we've been doing and seems the safest.

From page 30.

8.1.2	Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1     “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2     “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de- cocked.

8.1.2.3     “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

8.1.2.4     With respect to Rules 8.1.2.1 and 8.1.2.3, the term “safety” means the primary visible safety lever on the handgun (e.g. the thumb safety on a “1911” genre handgun). In the event of doubt, the Range Master is the final authority on this matter.

Edited June 20, 2011 by sofong

[spanky]

, , ,

And I totally agree with you, sir. Half cock, if feasible, should be the rule. Sigs decock to half cock. CZs with decockers decock to halfcock. I love Shadows, and I have one myself. I compete these days with a G34, but if I compete with my Shadow under the current rules I'll fully decock because that's what it says in the rule book. That's not my interpretation, that's what it literally says.

We've been screwing up then, hmmm. I'll have to ask my ROs and Match Director. I shoot a CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow Target which does not have the firing pin safety (the only 75 without) and have been starting cocked and locked and therefore single action. Lowering the hammer on a round, even to half cock position, is just looking for an eventual AD and resultant DQ.

I'll write them now and post their responses.

You've been starting cocked and locked in production division?

[spanky]

John is out of his mind with that email. Some rules get a 100% literal interpretation, others get a "spirit of the rule" interpretation. The rule literally says "fully decocked." What else could that mean but fully decocked? Half cocked, by definition, is not fully decocked. And yet we get a "spirit of the rule" email from DNROI. As ROs this is an important issue because we need to apply the rule fairly from shooter to shooter, stage to stage, match to match. Letting one shooter start from half cock and forcing others to start from fully decocked does not give everyone the same challenge on every stage.

I wholeheartedly agree. Anyone who says there is no difference is silly. There was an absolutely nori able different on first shot on my shadow between starting at half cock and starting fully decocked.

[sperman]

, , ,

And I totally agree with you, sir. Half cock, if feasible, should be the rule. Sigs decock to half cock. CZs with decockers decock to halfcock. I love Shadows, and I have one myself. I compete these days with a G34, but if I compete with my Shadow under the current rules I'll fully decock because that's what it says in the rule book. That's not my interpretation, that's what it literally says.

We've been screwing up then, hmmm. I'll have to ask my ROs and Match Director. I shoot a CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow Target which does not have the firing pin safety (the only 75 without) and have been starting cocked and locked and therefore single action. Lowering the hammer on a round, even to half cock position, is just looking for an eventual AD and resultant DQ.

I'll write them now and post their responses.

From Appendix D4 - Production Division

Special conditions:

— Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal.

[glefos]

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or decocked.

Hammer fully down and decocked are different things when referencing the ready position. Decocked if that is a function of the firearm or hammer fully down if no decocker.

[ck1]

I start with the hammer all the way down, if Amidon days it's ok to start at half-cock then that's cool with me, but I agree it makes no sense as the rule reads pretty clear and there really needs to be a rule-clarification specifically addressing the issue made in order to take any subjectivity out of the equation... Besides, without a copy of that email on hand I'd pretty much bet on getting hassled if trying to start at half-cock at most matches.

Plus, it's worth mentioning that whether or not half-cock is actually any safer with a non-FPB equipped Shadow is debatable anyways, as giving the hammer some room to pick up some momentum in the event of a drop doesn't strike me as any more of a "safe-mode" than if the hammer is all the way down, and in some ways trying to find half-cock while holding the hammer and with the trigger pulled could be more dangerous and lead to an ND/ AD being MORE likely as down is down, but finding half-cock leaves the possibility of missing it by mistake and letting the hammer snap against the back of the FPB, getting quite a scare or worse... it's an inertial firing pin design so even with the hammer resting on the back of the firing pin the end of the firing pin doesn't protrude through the breach-face. Think I'm on the fence as to which option is more safe, maybe leaning towards the hammer resting all the way down as being safer...

Edited June 20, 2011 by ck1

[Hammar]

...

Lowering the hammer on a round, even to half cock position, is just waiting for an eventual thumb slip, AD and resultant DQ...

True, and I have personally seen this exact thing happen at a local match.

[ck1]

...

Lowering the hammer on a round, even to half cock position, is just waiting for an eventual thumb slip, AD and resultant DQ...

True, and I have personally seen this exact thing happen at a local match.

Not necessarily, that's kind of open-ended... you could go further with that and eventually add that up to: "if you spend time around guns, sooner or later you're going to get shot..." if you wanted to, saying it could happen doesn't make it so.

My take is that a couple different things are being discussed here: ( A ) is lowering the hammer to half-cock (rather than lowering all the way down) allowed and legal in USPSA Production, and ( B ), is one way maybe more safe than the other (lowering to half-cock vs. all the way down), technically-speaking.

Think all of us know firearms can be dangerous when handled poorly/irresponsibly no matter what, whether lowering a hammer or doing anything else, and what one thinks is safer over what is less-safe, subjectively-speaking, could go on forever and ever (as an example: I've met plenty of guys who think Glocks are unsafe since they don't have a manual safety-lever, doesn't mean they're correct, etc., etc.).

Edited June 20, 2011 by ck1

[sofong]

I haven't heard back yet from anyone here, but read the

Special conditions:

— Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal.

on page 81 of the 2010 USPSA Handgun Rules at the end of Appendix D4. Been doing it wrong under the watchful eyes of the ROs. I forgive them as they are all Open shooters. Guess that I should go from a "D" back to a "U" and start again.

Stopped by the local indoor range and wow that's a looong, hard (4.2 lb) pull in DA. SA is sweet. I'll have to pick something easy for my shot, damn.

[BayouSlide]

I start with the hammer all the way down, if Amidon days it's ok to start at half-cock then that's cool with me, but I agree it makes no sense as the rule reads pretty clear and there really needs to be a rule-clarification specifically addressing the issue made in order to take any subjectivity out of the equation... Besides, without a copy of that email on hand I'd pretty much bet on getting hassled if trying to start at half-cock at most matches.

Even with that e-mail, expect to be hassled by any CRO/RO worth his rule book. An e-mail from Amidon is not official, the notification must be published in Front Sight magazine and the NROI rulings section of the website. Until it is officially published and vetted by the powers that be, it is just an informed opinion, not a rule clarification or change.

Curtis

Edited: because I hate tipos typos!

Edited June 20, 2011 by BayouSlide

[OpenDot]

CZ Shadow Custom with the Angus trigger job... is almost impossible to safely get the hammer all the way down without the gun AD in production, he does it all day everyday as alot of you as well but for new CZ Shadow owners...wow it's tricky to do so without AD.

Tread lightly while doing so..

[sperman]

CZ Shadow Custom with the Angus trigger job... is almost impossible to safely get the hammer all the way down without the gun AD in production, he does it all day everyday as alot of you as well but for new CZ Shadow owners...wow it's tricky to do so without AD.

Tread lightly while doing so..

I've got a Shadow Custom with the Angus trigger job. I've lowered the hammer hundreds if not thousands of times without incident.

To be honest, I can't see where the trigger job has anything to do with it. I grab the hammer with my support hand thumb and index finger. Only after I have a firm grip on the hammer, do I put my finger in the trigger guard and pull the trigger. Then I gently lower the hammer.