Half cock or fully decocked for production division?

[ck1]

CZ Shadow Custom with the Angus trigger job... is almost impossible to safely get the hammer all the way down without the gun AD in production, he does it all day everyday as alot of you as well but for new CZ Shadow owners...wow it's tricky to do so without AD.

Tread lightly while doing so..

I've got a Shadow Custom with the Angus trigger job. I've lowered the hammer hundreds if not thousands of times without incident.

To be honest, I can't see where the trigger job has anything to do with it. I grab the hammer with my support hand thumb and index finger. Only after I have a firm grip on the hammer, do I put my finger in the trigger guard and pull the trigger. Then I gently lower the hammer.

+1, same gun, same technique here.

[ChuckS]

is almost impossible to safely get the hammer all the way down without the gun AD in production,

Now you tell me. I got an SP-01 from Angus early 2006 and shot it the entire year in production with no issue. Now I find out I was doomed to fail. Damn..

[eerw]

is almost impossible to safely get the hammer all the way down without the gun AD in production,

Now you tell me. I got an SP-01 from Angus early 2006 and shot it the entire year in production with no issue. Now I find out I was doomed to fail. Damn..

only a matter of time..just flirtin with disaster!

[OpenDot]

I did it with mine first time I got it at the range...not at a match, that was when i found out

Mine was because I didn't use my thumb and index finger, just the thumb...ooops LOL

Edited June 20, 2011 by OpenDot

[ChuckS]

is almost impossible to safely get the hammer all the way down without the gun AD in production,

Now you tell me. I got an SP-01 from Angus early 2006 and shot it the entire year in production with no issue. Now I find out I was doomed to fail. Damn..

only a matter of time..just flirtin with disaster!

[Philo_Beddoe]

Out of curiosity I called CZ-USA today and spoke to a gunsmith. He stated that lowering the hammer to the firing pin on the shadow is less safe then lowering it to the half cock safety notch when placing the handgun in double action mode due to the lack of a firing pin block. He stated that a hard strike to the hammer while it is resting on the firing pin could cause an accidental discharge. So current USPSA rules for the production division are forcing their competitors to decock their handguns to double action mode in a manner that his not recommended by the manufactuer's gunsmiths.

[GeneBray]

My dumb question is, "Can anyone tell me the functional difference between a CZ75 with a decocker and the hammer lower to the half cock and a DA/SA version with the hammer lowered to the half cock manually?" I know what the USPSA rules say. It just seems dumb that you can lower the hammer to the half cock using a decocker but cannot do it on an SA/DA.

[sperman]

Out of curiosity I called CZ-USA today and spoke to a gunsmith. He stated that lowering the hammer to the firing pin on the shadow is less safe then lowering it to the half cock safety notch when placing the handgun in double action mode due to the lack of a firing pin block. He stated that a hard strike to the hammer while it is resting on the firing pin could cause an accidental discharge. So current USPSA rules for the production division are forcing their competitors to decock their handguns to double action mode in a manner that his not recommended by the manufactuer's gunsmiths.

Be careful what you ask for. You might just get the Shadow removed from the production list. The rules for USPSA production were around before CZ decided to remove the firing pin block. If having the hammer in the fully decocked position is unsafe, they should have installed a de-cocker on the gun.

Considering the gun is loaded in the holster for about 10 seconds per stage, and most of that time is spent standing still, I'm not too worried about the chance of an AD because the hammer is fully decocked.

[ck1]

Out of curiosity I called CZ-USA today and spoke to a gunsmith. He stated that lowering the hammer to the firing pin on the shadow is less safe then lowering it to the half cock safety notch when placing the handgun in double action mode due to the lack of a firing pin block. He stated that a hard strike to the hammer while it is resting on the firing pin could cause an accidental discharge. So current USPSA rules for the production division are forcing their competitors to decock their handguns to double action mode in a manner that his not recommended by the manufactuer's gunsmiths.

Be careful what you ask for. You might just get the Shadow removed from the production list. The rules for USPSA production were around before CZ decided to remove the firing pin block. If having the hammer in the fully decocked position is unsafe, they should have installed a de-cocker on the gun.

Considering the gun is loaded in the holster for about 10 seconds per stage, and most of that time is spent standing still, I'm not too worried about the chance of an AD because the hammer is fully decocked.

I agree, pushing this isn't really necessary and could just make the situation worse on Shadow owners, I don't think any of us really care about whether or not the first shot happens from all the way down vs. half-cock enough to cause a fuss. If you're not comfortable with starting by manually decocking to hammer all the way down CZ makes many guns with decockers and there's lots of other platforms to run.

Besides, your 75B has a FPB, so as long as you let go of the trigger before you set the hammer down you've got nothing to worry about.

[Philo_Beddoe]

Out of curiosity I called CZ-USA today and spoke to a gunsmith. He stated that lowering the hammer to the firing pin on the shadow is less safe then lowering it to the half cock safety notch when placing the handgun in double action mode due to the lack of a firing pin block. He stated that a hard strike to the hammer while it is resting on the firing pin could cause an accidental discharge. So current USPSA rules for the production division are forcing their competitors to decock their handguns to double action mode in a manner that his not recommended by the manufactuer's gunsmiths.

Be careful what you ask for. You might just get the Shadow removed from the production list. The rules for USPSA production were around before CZ decided to remove the firing pin block. If having the hammer in the fully decocked position is unsafe, they should have installed a de-cocker on the gun.

Considering the gun is loaded in the holster for about 10 seconds per stage, and most of that time is spent standing still, I'm not too worried about the chance of an AD because the hammer is fully decocked.

I agree, pushing this isn't really necessary and could just make the situation worse on Shadow owners, I don't think any of us really care about whether or not the first shot happens from all the way down vs. half-cock enough to cause a fuss. If you're not comfortable with starting by manually decocking to hammer all the way down CZ makes many guns with decockers and there's lots of other platforms to run.

Besides, your 75B has a FPB, so as long as you let go of the trigger before you set the hammer down you've got nothing to worry about.

1) I sold the 75b and now run a shadow.

2) You have to continually press the trigger to lower the hammer past the half cock notch which means you pretty much have to press the trigger until the hammer rest on the firing pin.

3) Almost all open, single stack, and limited guns lack a firing pin safety block. The CZ shadow is a safe gun it is even more safe when USPSA does not force silly rules on its operation.

4) The orginal non B version of the CZ 75 did not have a firing pin block either and has always been on the approved production list. The 85 combat has no FPB either.

JMHO

Edited June 21, 2011 by Philo_Beddoe

[Philo_Beddoe]

Found this on wikipedia under the CZ 75 entry.

All non-double action only CZ-75 variants feature a "half-cock" notch. Unlike a M1911 pistol, this is not a safety position, but rather an operator aid to provide a safe place to manually decock the pistol. All of the "decocker" models decock to this position, and the manual advises not to attempt to place the hammer further on any model.

The article list no source for this bit of information however.

[ck1]

Well, I think you do have a valid point... I just hope USPSA's answer doesn't make us all cringe.

That said, I don't totally agree with what you were told by the CZ gunsmith, as I've heard the exact opposite from another experienced gunsmith before from the point of view saying hammer down on the firing pin being considered less safe is in a way putting far too much faith in a shallow half-cock notch that was intended to catch a hammer falling from full-cock do to a sear/hammer failure, never to hold a hammer immobile (as in the case of a drop) and ignores the physics of how an inertial firing pin functions... so it's sort of subjective to how one looks at a given scenario for a potential mishap to occur, while holstered, or in superficial handling, it's maybe indeed a little safer to have the hammer not resting on the firing pin just in-case it were to take a blow square on the back of the hammer, but in contrast, if the pistol was to be dropped the hammer resting at half-cock would likely add to the potential danger as the hammer would not only have gravity but a fait amount of spring pre-load for some added drama...

At any rate, decocking a pistol manually is serious business whether to half-cock or to full rest, and anything less than adequate attention will result in a bad day... maybe that's as it should be, it'd be ok with Darwin .

[Philo_Beddoe]

At any rate, decocking a pistol manually is serious business whether to half-cock or to full rest, and anything less than adequate attention will result in a bad day... maybe that's as it should be, it'd be ok with Darwin .

Agreed,no AD's yet, knock on wood.

[sofong]

Match Director replied "Hammer down".

[beltjones]

Well, I think you do have a valid point... I just hope USPSA's answer doesn't make us all cringe.

That said, I don't totally agree with what you were told by the CZ gunsmith, as I've heard the exact opposite from another experienced gunsmith before from the point of view saying hammer down on the firing pin being considered less safe is in a way putting far too much faith in a shallow half-cock notch that was intended to catch a hammer falling from full-cock do to a sear/hammer failure, never to hold a hammer immobile (as in the case of a drop) and ignores the physics of how an inertial firing pin functions... so it's sort of subjective to how one looks at a given scenario for a potential mishap to occur, while holstered, or in superficial handling, it's maybe indeed a little safer to have the hammer not resting on the firing pin just in-case it were to take a blow square on the back of the hammer, but in contrast, if the pistol was to be dropped the hammer resting at half-cock would likely add to the potential danger as the hammer would not only have gravity but a fait amount of spring pre-load for some added drama...

At any rate, decocking a pistol manually is serious business whether to half-cock or to full rest, and anything less than adequate attention will result in a bad day... maybe that's as it should be, it'd be ok with Darwin .

Agreed. The response from the CZ gunsmith sounds like an opinion based on his knowledge of the gun, and not a fact proven by his empirical testing.

The one fact that does remain is that the rule says that the gun must be fully decocked. As an RO, until they change the rule, post the opinion in Front Sight, or add it to the rulings page on USPSA.org I'll be starting everyone with a non-decocker CZ in Production with the hammer all the way down.

[Joe4d]

This may be a "default to the manufacturers reccommendation" The CZ has very specific instructions for putting the non decocker version is safe mode,

Load the pistol. Grasp the grip, POINT IN A SAFE DIRECTION. With thumb and

index finger of the other hand hold the hammer firmly (Fig. 5), pull the trigger

and release the hammer slowly and gradually until it rests on the firing pin

stop. Release the trigger.

notice it says until it rests on firing pin, so with this gun, half cock not only doesnt abide by our rules, it is contrtary to the manufacturers reccommendation.

I think we need a change in the rule though. What about a phrase along the lines, of, A safe mechanical condition of readiness apropriate for the design,

I honestly dont see the issue, We allow XD's (legally SA's) and very short travel partially cocked striker fired guns in production let the hammer guys start in a safe way apropriate to the design, An M9 beretta would be decocked, a CZ would be cocked and locked, does it really matter ? Go to any IDPA match and look at the scores between SSP and ESP guys, there is very little to any spread. You have striker guns winning in ESP, If cocked and locked was such an advantage you wouldnt see that.

[sperman]

I don't like the thumb safeties on the CZ. I would much rather start DA than use the thumb safeties.

[CZinSC]

I don't like the thumb safeties on the CZ. I would much rather start DA than use the thumb safeties.

I'm not wild about cocked and locked on the CZ either. In fact, when I shoot L10 Minor, I shoot all the stages double action ( mostly to keep practicing lowering the hammer ).

I'd prefer starting half cocked ( the gun, not me! ). You can still AD if you're not careful, but the chances are reduced considerably. And you still have the double action pull on the first shot.

[Joe4d]

The way I read the owners manual and the USPSA rule book, I dont agree with setting the hammer on half cock and neither does the manufacturer. I just dont think the gun is designed that way any more than a 1911 is designed to have the hammer on half cock, Its simply an added safety if the sear fails at the cocked and locked position. The guns were never intended to be put in that position on purpose. I am gonna assume the CZ has an inertia firing pin thats shorter than the firing pin channel so that once lowered there isnt any way for a blow to the back of the hammer to ignite a round.

The proper way to holster a CZ with a round in the chamber is either cocked and locked, or hammer all the way down regardless of the rules, or emails.

[ck1]

I did a little reading (well, more like kind of a lot) this morning on CZ's and their inertial firing pin (including some older benos threads that mirror this one).

Turns out that do to the CZ's inertial firing pin design the hammer being decocked and fully-down, resting against the back of the firing pin, is not really that dangerous as it may seem and definitely, without a doubt more safe then the hammer resting at half-cock (in a non-FPB Shadow's case anyway).

Like Joe4d said, an inertial firing pin is shorter than the channel in which it resides and do to the shorter length and firing pin spring does not protrude through the breach-face... the hammer sitting there has no real bearing on safety either way as any strike with enough force or a drop from a reasonably high height to actually cause the the firing pin to move forward fast enough will cause the gun to discharge only by overcoming the strength of the firing pin spring, the hammer resting against the back of the firing pin compresses the firing spring as far as it can and is allowed to already, therefore relinquishing any added leverage it would have to add momentum-wise.

Seems CZ's gunsmith either needs to educate himself more thoroughly on how inertial firing pins work, or probably more likely, without knowing the user's skill level, just didn't think it was ok to tell a user that it's perfectly safe to manually decock a non-FPB-equipped pistol and risk liability in the event of a ND.

Edited June 21, 2011 by ck1

[Flexmoney]

Be careful on a gun on table start:

10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or

unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded

or not. Note that a competitor who,

for any reason during a course of

fire, safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other

stable object will not be disqualified provided:

10.5.3.4 The handgun is in the ready condition as specified in Section

8.1, or

8.1.1.2 Double Action: hammer

fully down

and all chambers may be

loaded.

[spanky]

I don't quite understand why it matters what X manufacturer says you should do or the procedure that Y manufacturer gives.

IMO the rule books says hammer FULLY down. That means, in MY OPINION, even if the gun is equipped with a decocker, if the decocker does not lower the hammer FULLY down (the place where it would be if you dry fired it) then the shooter needs to manually lower the hammer. This might be a PITA for some but it is, of course, a trade off for easier shots after the first one.

Edited June 21, 2011 by spanky

[sperman]

Why would a gun on table start be any different than a holstered start?

[Jay870]

I don't quite understand why it matters what X manufacturer says you should do or the procedure that Y manufacturer gives.

IMO the rule books says hammer FULLY down. That means, in MY OPINION, even if the gun is equipped with a decocker, if the decocker does not lower the hammer FULLY down (the place where it would be if you dry fired it) then the shooter needs to manually lower the hammer. This might be a PITA for some but it is, of course, a trade off for easier shots after the first one.

There is an NROI ruling that says on decocker equipped guns, wherever the decocker leaves the hammer satisfies the term "fully decocked".

[spanky]

I don't quite understand why it matters what X manufacturer says you should do or the procedure that Y manufacturer gives.

IMO the rule books says hammer FULLY down. That means, in MY OPINION, even if the gun is equipped with a decocker, if the decocker does not lower the hammer FULLY down (the place where it would be if you dry fired it) then the shooter needs to manually lower the hammer. This might be a PITA for some but it is, of course, a trade off for easier shots after the first one.

There is an NROI ruling that says on decocker equipped guns, wherever the decocker leaves the hammer satisfies the term "fully decocked".

I understand but that doesn't answer why it matters what X manufacturer thinks. either it has a d/c and you d/c it or you lower it manually. just do it or shoot another gun if you're not comfortable complying with the rules.