best strategy to be competitive in production

[redbird1976]

I'm primarily a limited shooter. However, I shot in production division at the Alabama state championship this past weekend. My strategy was to slow down a little and up my "A" count primarily because I was concerned that dropping points on "C's" would be detrimental to my overall score. It turned out that I was off the pace by about 50% throughout the match. I had a couple of stages where I had a few make up shots and an extra reload here or there. My question is which has more value: going wide open and making the extra reload that pop up when the run isn't perfect or running at a slower pace and losing the make up shots and extra reloads?

Thanks,

T. Knight

[Duane Thomas]

Neither. Shoot fast and makes the As anyway. I know that sounds like a simplistic answer, but if you want to excel it really is the only answer. You do not, this early-on in your competition shooting career - at least I assume it's early-on given this question's location in the BEginner's forum - want to build an either/or attitude toward speed and accuracy.

[Nik Habicht]

Duane's right --- but I have more: Get to know your strengths and especially your weaknesses. Work to fix them. If on the way you encounter a stage in a match that you know will give you trouble with time, then make sure you focus on the points on that stage. By the same token, if you know there's a stage where you'll have trouble with a target or two, don't let them bog you down to the point where it kills your time....

When the Summer Blast was still in Virginia they had a Cooper Tunnel stage. I had virtually no experience with Cooper Tunnels, and knew, given my relative size and agility level that my time for the stage would take a hit. By focusing on shooting all Alphas, I managed to turn in a decent (for my class) score that didn't wreck my match performance....

At multiple matches early on, I spent excess amounts of time taking extra shots on distant or moving targets, to the detriment of time and stage (and therefore match) score. I had to learn to accept Charlies and Deltas on swingers, in the interest of finishing better on a stage. With time, experience and practice, Alphas became a probability on swingers....

[jasmap]

+1 to Duane and Nick.

A simple answer is don't worry about your speed but simply shoot Alphas as fast as you can see the sights. The speed will come with training (if you aren't blazing fast already).

I used to think I had to burn a stage down to keep up with a buddy that smoked it. I came to realize that there are always more than one stage and one stage rarely wins it but a combination of good stages is better.

[JimmyZip]

Think about it for a second. In production, EVERYTHING MATTERS! The reloads 'cause there are more. The trigger/accuracy, because it's not your limited gun's trigger. No magwell. No race holster. Iron sights. Mag placement. Production to me, seems like the practical side of our sport. Not that it's not a gamers division, 'cause I think they all are. It's just bone stock vs. bone stock. (For the most part anyway.) More indian, less arrow.

JZ

[Sarge]

I have been at this game for a year and only shoot production. I have had some great coaches who have helped me alot. I asked this question once and got my answer from watching a video of myself. I shot a stage and told myself to slow down and shoot A's. I was watching the video yelling at myself to get my ass moving. I am convinced that Duane and Nik have hit the nail on the head. You can not be so slow as to be deliberate. You have to be fast and accurate within your skills range. And I keep the gun fully stoked almost every time my feet are moving unless I am shooting on the move.

I'm a noob but this works for me.

[Pezco]

I would echo the guys advice above and add that it depends on the stage hit factor as to where or not it makes sense to make up a shot or slow down. I'm not an expert in this area, but as a rule of thumb I use make up a shot if the stage has a high hit factor and don't if it is a low hit factor. A lot depends on knowing your limitations, split times, transitions etc.

[sslav]

Sometimes you can read/watch/hear great advice and instruction but it simply does not sink in. I am going on four years of practical shooting and only really "got it" a couple of months ago. I was doing a decent amount of dry firing - at times daily at times not so much. At times I was doing live fire practice regularly and at times not. There was a definite slow improvement but I was never able to reach consistency. Shooting a clean stage seemed more a matter of luck than intent. But about six or eight months ago I kinda lost focus on shooting. My practice time went to pretty much nothing. So after a rather prolonged period of not even unlocking my gun safe I came to one of our practice matches. Knowing that I was out of practice I resolved that I would just slow it down and not focus on time at all. So when the buzzer went off I fairly calmly and deliberately drew, saw a sight picture, pulled the trigger, saw a sight picture, pulled the trigger and so on. When I needed to move, I moved when I needed to reload I reloaded. Speed was never a thought and I felt like I was going pretty slow. I got good hits and was pretty happy. I then saw another shooter on the stage and he was really moving. Everything he did was fast. "Wow, I wonder what his time is." I thought to myself. When his time was called it was within a few tenth's of a second of mine (I don't remember if it was higher or lower). It is funny how this complex sport for me ended up breaking into one simple rule - When you see an acceptable sight picture, pull the trigger. I now focus on speed in practice only. In matches I simply shoot and let the speed take care of itself.

[j1b]

Neither. Shoot fast and makes the As anyway. I know that sounds like a simplistic answer, but if you want to excel it really is the only answer. You do not, this early-on in your competition shooting career - at least I assume it's early-on given this question's location in the BEginner's forum - want to build an either/or attitude toward speed and accuracy.

A very crucial point made here. The either/or discussion seems so detrimental. The trick is figuring out how to do each component better, not how to trade one for the other.

Think about it for a second. In production, EVERYTHING MATTERS! The reloads 'cause there are more. The trigger/accuracy, because it's not your limited gun's trigger. No magwell. No race holster. Iron sights. Mag placement. Production to me, seems like the practical side of our sport. Not that it's not a gamers division, 'cause I think they all are. It's just bone stock vs. bone stock. (For the most part anyway.) More indian, less arrow.

JZ

This is spot on. IMO, production is the most demanding on nailing every component of the game. Reloads, accuracy, speed, stage planning, etc. etc. It emphasizes everything. To excel means building the best foundation in all of it. The bad news is that it means every component of the game has to be pretty strong in order to excel. The good news is that excelling in production means your foundation is solid and very transferable to other disciplines.

Jack

[Chills1994]

Shoot all A's.

Quickly.

[Flexmoney]

My strategy was to slow down...

It turned out that I was off the pace by about 50% throughout the match.

So, ya had a strategy to go slow... You can't then be surprised that you were off the pace??

...up my "A" count.

Just do that part...without the speed focus.

[redbird1976]

Hey Guys, Thanks for the input. Generally speaking, I can run the stages much faster than what I did last weekend, but I tend to shoot more C's that way. I was concerned that dropping two points for every c instead of one point on c's shooting major would hurt my hit factor more than going slow. Obviously, I was wrong. I usually break the first shot around 1.3 seconds. My splits are around .20 with my production gun on paper and .55-.60 on steel. My transitions on paper are .36 and .50 on steel. It takes about 2.5 sec to reload and break the next shot. I guess I'll amp up the speed and see how that works out.

[Loves2Shoot]

OK, I'll keep it simple using the math.

If you shoot a C your just lost 40% of the points available for that shot in Production. If you say your A split is .2, then you have to make a .12 split to make a C hit score the same as an A hit at .2.

Can you shoot fast enough to make up for the points you are dropping?

[jkatz44]

I'm primarily a limited shooter. However, I shot in production division at the Alabama state championship this past weekend. My strategy was to slow down a little and up my "A" count primarily because I was concerned that dropping points on "C's" would be detrimental to my overall score. It turned out that I was off the pace by about 50% throughout the match. I had a couple of stages where I had a few make up shots and an extra reload here or there. My question is which has more value: going wide open and making the extra reload that pop up when the run isn't perfect or running at a slower pace and losing the make up shots and extra reloads?

Thanks,

T. Knight

I too was confused about this same issue. I have since found a solution.

Shoot as fast as your sights will let you.

[G-ManBart]

Hey Guys, Thanks for the input. Generally speaking, I can run the stages much faster than what I did last weekend, but I tend to shoot more C's that way. I was concerned that dropping two points for every c instead of one point on c's shooting major would hurt my hit factor more than going slow. Obviously, I was wrong. I usually break the first shot around 1.3 seconds. My splits are around .20 with my production gun on paper and .55-.60 on steel. My transitions on paper are .36 and .50 on steel. It takes about 2.5 sec to reload and break the next shot. I guess I'll amp up the speed and see how that works out.

Don't amp up the speed. Forget ALL of that. Simply shoot A's as fast as you can.

It doesn't matter what division you look at, the winners of most every stage at a big match will have shot something like 95% of the possible points....32-round field course, they're probably shooting something like 150-155 of the possible points.

If you're not consistently shooting in the 90%+ of the available points, there is a mismatch between your trigger finger and your vision....they aren't in sync. The shooters that can really call their shots are trying to shoot A's on the ragged edge of how fast they can be sure of getting an A and sometimes they're a bit over the edge and it's a C. That's fine as long as it doesn't happen a lot. D's are unacceptable in almost every situation (sometimes with weird positions and hard cover/no-shoots a D may not be not unreasonable (especially if you know it), but that's not too common. R,

[redbird1976]

Hey Guys, Thanks for the input. Generally speaking, I can run the stages much faster than what I did last weekend, but I tend to shoot more C's that way. I was concerned that dropping two points for every c instead of one point on c's shooting major would hurt my hit factor more than going slow. Obviously, I was wrong. I usually break the first shot around 1.3 seconds. My splits are around .20 with my production gun on paper and .55-.60 on steel. My transitions on paper are .36 and .50 on steel. It takes about 2.5 sec to reload and break the next shot. I guess I'll amp up the speed and see how that works out.

Don't amp up the speed. Forget ALL of that. Simply shoot A's as fast as you can.

It doesn't matter what division you look at, the winners of most every stage at a big match will have shot something like 95% of the possible points....32-round field course, they're probably shooting something like 150-155 of the possible points.

If you're not consistently shooting in the 90%+ of the available points, there is a mismatch between your trigger finger and your vision....they aren't in sync. The shooters that can really call their shots are trying to shoot A's on the ragged edge of how fast they can be sure of getting an A and sometimes they're a bit over the edge and it's a C. That's fine as long as it doesn't happen a lot. D's are unacceptable in almost every situation (sometimes with weird positions and hard cover/no-shoots a D may not be not unreasonable (especially if you know it), but that's not too common. R,

I know what you mean. My point count is usually in the 85 to 95 percent range. It just seems I'm off the pace. Had I had a point of comparison, I would have adjusted my speed accordingly. My pace was consistent with the other members of my squad who were mostly a and b class open and limited shooters.

Let me ask you this,is it better to maximize the use of all ten rounds or better just to reload on the move between arrays?

[BSeevers]

Your shooting Prod and keeping up with A Open? If so your speed is M Prod, in general, assuming the A Open shooters have both legs and so forth. So don't worry about it. Personally I would gauge myself off of a M Prod shooter.

In Prod shooting 90% is all A's except for 6 C's on a 24 rd course. 95+% where match winner usually falls is only 3 C's in 24rds.

If you are shooting that level then just get better not faster. That's transistions, target acq, setups, leaving positions and so forth.

[Sarge]

Hey Guys, Thanks for the input. Generally speaking, I can run the stages much faster than what I did last weekend, but I tend to shoot more C's that way. I was concerned that dropping two points for every c instead of one point on c's shooting major would hurt my hit factor more than going slow. Obviously, I was wrong. I usually break the first shot around 1.3 seconds. My splits are around .20 with my production gun on paper and .55-.60 on steel. My transitions on paper are .36 and .50 on steel. It takes about 2.5 sec to reload and break the next shot. I guess I'll amp up the speed and see how that works out.

Don't amp up the speed. Forget ALL of that. Simply shoot A's as fast as you can.

It doesn't matter what division you look at, the winners of most every stage at a big match will have shot something like 95% of the possible points....32-round field course, they're probably shooting something like 150-155 of the possible points.

If you're not consistently shooting in the 90%+ of the available points, there is a mismatch between your trigger finger and your vision....they aren't in sync. The shooters that can really call their shots are trying to shoot A's on the ragged edge of how fast they can be sure of getting an A and sometimes they're a bit over the edge and it's a C. That's fine as long as it doesn't happen a lot. D's are unacceptable in almost every situation (sometimes with weird positions and hard cover/no-shoots a D may not be not unreasonable (especially if you know it), but that's not too common. R,

Let me ask you this,is it better to maximize the use of all ten rounds or better just to reload on the move between arrays?

It should all depend on the stage. If I shot 6 and have to only take two steps to the next array of only two targets and they are close, wide open etc then I would go for it with what is left. But for me if there is alot of distance to the targets, cover or I have lots of ground to cover I typically reload. I personally do everything possible to avoid slide lock or standing reloads. Maybe thats just me though. And like I said before, I'm still learning.

[mjts]

I've only been shooting USPSA for about a year and it seems that while production is the easiest division to get started in, it's the hardest to shoot well. You really have to be able to "read" a stage to figure out if it is a high or low hit factor stage and run it accordingly. My reloads have to be spot on or I'll easily add several additional seconds in a 24 shot stage. I'm still at the point where I'm focusing on the fundamentals, but over the past several months I feel that I'm better able to plan my movements and be much more efficient when I run a COF.

Mike

[redbird1976]

I've only been shooting USPSA for about a year and it seems that while production is the easiest division to get started in, it's the hardest to shoot well. You really have to be able to "read" a stage to figure out if it is a high or low hit factor stage and run it accordingly. My reloads have to be spot on or I'll easily add several additional seconds in a 24 shot stage. I'm still at the point where I'm focusing on the fundamentals, but over the past several months I feel that I'm better able to plan my movements and be much more efficient when I run a COF.

Mike

How do you decide whether a stage has a high or low hit factor. I've shot uspsa for three or four years, but I've never been able to get my head around how to judge how fast to shoot a stage other than to say the lower the round count the faster it needs to be shot. How do you decide?

[redbird1976]

Hey Guys, Thanks for the input. Generally speaking, I can run the stages much faster than what I did last weekend, but I tend to shoot more C's that way. I was concerned that dropping two points for every c instead of one point on c's shooting major would hurt my hit factor more than going slow. Obviously, I was wrong. I usually break the first shot around 1.3 seconds. My splits are around .20 with my production gun on paper and .55-.60 on steel. My transitions on paper are .36 and .50 on steel. It takes about 2.5 sec to reload and break the next shot. I guess I'll amp up the speed and see how that works out.

Don't amp up the speed. Forget ALL of that. Simply shoot A's as fast as you can.

It doesn't matter what division you look at, the winners of most every stage at a big match will have shot something like 95% of the possible points....32-round field course, they're probably shooting something like 150-155 of the possible points.

If you're not consistently shooting in the 90%+ of the available points, there is a mismatch between your trigger finger and your vision....they aren't in sync. The shooters that can really call their shots are trying to shoot A's on the ragged edge of how fast they can be sure of getting an A and sometimes they're a bit over the edge and it's a C. That's fine as long as it doesn't happen a lot. D's are unacceptable in almost every situation (sometimes with weird positions and hard cover/no-shoots a D may not be not unreasonable (especially if you know it), but that's not too common. R,

Let me ask you this,is it better to maximize the use of all ten rounds or better just to reload on the move between arrays?

It should all depend on the stage. If I shot 6 and have to only take two steps to the next array of only two targets and they are close, wide open etc then I would go for it with what is left. But for me if there is alot of distance to the targets, cover or I have lots of ground to cover I typically reload. I personally do everything possible to avoid slide lock or standing reloads. Maybe thats just me though. And like I said before, I'm still learning.

I tend to do the same thing, but I will pick up a shot on the move between arrays if its in the direction I'm moving.

How many spare mags do you carry on your belt? I carry four.

[jkatz44]

I have 5 mag pouches on my belt. The last one carries the mag with 11 rounds that I start with. So, basically 4.

[XRe]

A very crucial point made here. The either/or discussion seems so detrimental. The trick is figuring out how to do each component better, not how to trade one for the other.

No one will actually get this until they experience it for themselves from behind the gun, but...

The truth is that there is no choice between the two. You line the sights up in the A-zone and let it fly at the absolute soonest moment that you see what your experience tells you will put the hole where you're aiming it using the amount of trigger control you need to keep the gun lined up in that spot. There is no concern about accuracy or speed - either one is an illusion from behind the gun. There's "where do I want to hit" and "is the gun lined up there or not"... followed up with "did the sights lift from where I wanted to hit". To assign an "either/or" to the equation is to deny the fact that the gun can be shot ridiculously fast while shooting all As - but it won't be done while you're determined that one must be sacrificed for the other - and it also has the amusing side effect of pressuring the shooter to ignore "the shooting" in the name of "the speed"....

The other things that we do in this game - the things that are not "the shooting" - for those, "fast" is "efficient" and "a sense of urgency". But, "the shooting" is "the shooting"... there is not "fast/slow" or "accurate/inaccurate" dichotomy in "the shooting". There's only where you want it to go, and whether or not it went there.

[Flexmoney]

How do you decide whether a stage has a high or low hit factor. I've shot uspsa for three or four years, but I've never been able to get my head around how to judge how fast to shoot a stage other than to say the lower the round count the faster it needs to be shot. How do you decide?

You can look at your past results and see what hit factors you get. In fact, you can take your last dozen or two stages shot and average them and get an idea of where you usually end up (hmmmm...a spread sheet with a trailing average would let you know if you are trending up or down).

Anyway...very few people in Production are shooting a high hit factor. It is rare. Those that are, are already shooting points anyway.

Think of it this way... 5 Charlie hits at Minor power factor is equal to 10 points down. That is the same as the penalty for a miss.

Shoot Alphas. (just don't tell yourself to to be slow about it)

[Corey]

best way to be comptetive. land every shot in the a zone, preferrably in less time than it took the other guys

Missing the A zone hurts more in production as others have said. slow down just enough to get your A hits, but dont think of it as shooting slow. be smooth