Where have some of the top shooters gone?

[Rolex]

OK I gotta say this. I don't care if I loose or win. I am in it for the love of the shooting sports. I had to take some 17 years off becaue of my two son's, sports and

all the other things kids do when growing up, built two homes and worked in excess of

50hrs a week for some 15 years.

But I cam back for the love of the sport-not to be a M or GM shooter. I will have

to think that just maybe those M or GM may have to stay around the house a little more,

not because the did it all, but because of those wonderful grandchildren that their

children gave them!

[Ron Ankeny]

With just a little research it is pretty easy to learn why some of the big name shooters fell off of the sonar. In most cases you can get it from the horse's mouth. They all seem to have the same thing in common. Their personal (emphasis on personal) life simply evolved in a direction that moved them away from competitive shooting.

[lugnut]

Good answers and none that are really surprising. What is difficult for me to understand I guess is the love of the sport just going away. I realize life presents challenges and that shooting isn't more important than family- of course this is obvious. I want to be clear I'm not just talking about "professionals" that do this for a living... I'm talking about people that pour a lot of effort into the game and then decide it's not fun anymore and move on. I've only been shooting for a little more than three years and the love has not dwindled. I try not to lose focus of this being a hobby... all while trying as much as I can to do the best I can. Perspective is important.

[JimmyZip]

What did you do before you started shooting?

You'll be doing this before you start the next thing. I think longevity in this sport really depends on how many of your friends and family are involved with you. I'm not just talking people you see inside the shooting community, but outside as well. It is those people that will make it a lifetime commitment. They will have no choice as they have their life built into the culture. This is why, if you like to shoot, a bit of gentle pressure to get your kids involved (in one way or another) can make it so for you too.

Just a thought.

JZ

[lugnut]

What did you do before you started shooting?

You'll be doing this before you start the next thing. I think longevity in this sport really depends on how many of your friends and family are involved with you. I'm not just talking people you see inside the shooting community, but outside as well. It is those people that will make it a lifetime commitment. They will have no choice as they have their life built into the culture. This is why, if you like to shoot, a bit of gentle pressure to get your kids involved (in one way or another) can make it so for you too.

Just a thought.

JZ

Before this? I was into 4wheeling with my Jeep. Probably would still be doing it if it wasn't for very restrictive laws in my state. That being said, I"m in my 40s and I can't recall having a hobby that I liked so much. I big part of the fun is I think shooters are some of the most diverse group of people I've met... and most that I've met are awesome people. That certainly is a big draw for me. My kids... well I only wish they could appreciate this sport but they seem to have ZERO interest... and this is a bummer. I keep working it though.

[Nik Habicht]

What is difficult for me to understand I guess is the love of the sport just going away.

My late friend Bill Rosenthal was pretty involved in the sport in the 90s -- traveling to major matches, running a club match, helping out wherever he could, and generally involved and busy. Fast forward a little -- and he takes some time off, to spend more time with his little and growing kids and wife.

I came into the sport in 2001 (and shot IDPA at his former club in 2000) and didn't meet Bill until ~ 2004. We talked about this on more than one occasion. He told me that the love of the sport had never gone away, but that he realized that his kids would only be young once -- and that he didn't want to miss that. Shortly after his return he started bringing his daughter out to matches. At first she hung out with her dad and helped, eventually she started competing with us.....

Bill loved the sport. Bill loved the sport more once he was shooting with his daughter. Bill left the range too soon, in early 2008. I'm certain he didn't regret leaving the sport for those interim years. I'm equally certain he would have given anything to be able to spend more time with his family....

I, like you, didn't get it --- before Bill and I had those conversations. He taught me something about valuing the time I spend doing things, on and off the range. I miss him....

[Bill Nesbitt]

There's a lot of turnover in this sport. Just check USPSA membership numbers at your local and bigger matches. Very few low numbers. Those folks have moved on to something else. I joined USPSA in 1984 or so. My number is A-4429. I am sometimes the only 4 digit membership number at a match. Annual member #s are in the 65,000 range with around 20,000 members. That means 40,000 former members of USPSA. Some of them are former top shooters.

[Flatland Shooter]

I joined USPSA in 1984 or so. My number is A-4429. I am sometimes the only 4 digit membership number at a match.

Bill,

My number is A-3880 so I know what you mean. If I show up for a match where they don't know me, I give them my number and they look at me like I'm having a senior moment. They are waiting for that fifth digit.

[Nik Habicht]

One of the regulars at Central Jersey has a low two digit member number -- below 20.....

...with the CA prefix....

[Dan Sierpina]

I joined USPSA in 1984 or so. My number is A-4429. I am sometimes the only 4 digit membership number at a match.

Bill,

My number is A-3880 so I know what you mean. If I show up for a match where they don't know me, I give them my number and they look at me like I'm having a senior moment. They are waiting for that fifth digit.

Try having a 3 digit number!

[lugnut]

What is difficult for me to understand I guess is the love of the sport just going away.

My late friend Bill Rosenthal was pretty involved in the sport in the 90s -- traveling to major matches, running a club match, helping out wherever he could, and generally involved and busy. Fast forward a little -- and he takes some time off, to spend more time with his little and growing kids and wife.

I came into the sport in 2001 (and shot IDPA at his former club in 2000) and didn't meet Bill until ~ 2004. We talked about this on more than one occasion. He told me that the love of the sport had never gone away, but that he realized that his kids would only be young once -- and that he didn't want to miss that. Shortly after his return he started bringing his daughter out to matches. At first she hung out with her dad and helped, eventually she started competing with us.....

Bill loved the sport. Bill loved the sport more once he was shooting with his daughter. Bill left the range too soon, in early 2008. I'm certain he didn't regret leaving the sport for those interim years. I'm equally certain he would have given anything to be able to spend more time with his family....

I, like you, didn't get it --- before Bill and I had those conversations. He taught me something about valuing the time I spend doing things, on and off the range. I miss him....

Thanks for the detailed response Nik- so sorry about your friend. It certainly puts things into perspective huh? I guess everything we do involves some sacrifice and/or trade offs. Sometimes that balance isn't easy.

[j1b]

I don't think the love of the game goes away. The people who do this, do/did it well, and thrive in the game got there because they loved it. And still do.

Everyone has their story. In a good number of cases I suspect it's more than a single reason. I'd guess it's a dynamic, a combination of a multitude of factors that each by themselves doesn't really mean much but in combination makes it all more challenging.

In the end I think life happens. Plain and simple.

J

[Still Praying]

lugnut

Posted 24 February 2010 - 06:06 PM

Good answers and none that are really surprising. What is difficult for me to understand I guess is the love of the sport just going away.

I believe that some of the shooters you are talking about didn't love the sport anyway. They just loved the win, and when they got to the point where they couldn't win anymore or life got in the way of shooting/practice they just quit. I think if you love this or anything, you may have to stop it, but you don't just stop loving it.

As for me, I love this sport. I like learning how to be a better shooter, helping other shooters reach thier goals and most of all, the shooters I've met along the way. I also like to win, but thats second to having a good time.

[Flyin40]

Now this is just what I've seen and does not apply to all of them but, it does apply to most.

Most of the M/GM's get there because they have a need to dominate in what ever they do. This is not a bad thing, it's just the way they are. If they can't win, they don't play. So for whatever reason job, money, family, they can't practice, don't think they can win anymore or whatever. They will just quit. They don't shoot for the love of the sport but, for the win.

Have to disagree completely with you on this one. I know tons of M's and Gm's and your statement applies to very few that I have met, talked with and shot with. I know plenty of M's and Gm's that get their a$$ kicked on a regular basis also.

Just about everything in life is more important than shooting Uspsa. Its nothing more than that. Its up to each individual to make their own decision on how important it is to them. Most of the time even if they love the sport participating in it will require them to not have the time to put towards something else whether it is family, job or whatever. So they make a decision. Thats all.

Its not up to us to pass judgement on them for not shooting anymore or presume to know what drives them. I have friends that no longer shoot and still love the sport as much as when they shot it but they just love something else more and there is nothing wrong with that.

Flyin

[Flyin40]

Still Praying,

Just wanted to add that I'm not trying to get on you but just felt it was unfair to lump everyone together like that. There are quite a few people who fall into this category on the forum.

I do know those that winning is everything and that is what drives them. And like you I don't think there is anything wrong with that. There are those on both extreme ends but most fall into the middle.

Since Jake used himself as an example I'll go with that. Jake had a goal of shooting a 3second El Pres. Alot of people told him he couldn't do it. He knew in his mind that he could. Jake admitted he hates losing but I think(I could be wrong and Jake correct me if I'm wrong) he had to prove to himself that it could be done. He knew it could be done. The people telling him he couldn't do it did nothing but throw fuel on the fire. I was there watching him shoot and the brass, lead and fire was flying. I think that is what really drives people more than most understand. You can look in the mirror and know you achieved your goal. The fight for the win is not with everyone else but within ourselves.

Flyin

[Bob Hostetter]

First of all I am not a pro shooter, never have been, and never will be, but I have been a Master since the very early 90's and a couple of years ago screwed up and made GM in Limited. I have been competing in either USPSA or USPSA type matches since approximately 1984, my orginal membership number was in the low 4000's and my life number is in the very low 2000's. I started playing this game after it was suggested to me by a guy a bought a gun of from that I should shoot these matches to learn how to use the gun. At the time, as a hobby, we were racing boats, having given up racing Sprint Cars because it had gotten to expensive. I am extremely competitive in nature with a strong desire to win at whatever I do. When I was younger, you could say I was driven to win to a fault.

When I started shooting I enjoyed it and immediately decided that it would be fun to get good enough to win so I sit out to do just that. I took a class from J. Micheal Plaxco, laid out a training program, and starting praticing for an hour every morning before work and every day after work. I shoot at least one match every Saturday and Sunday, sometimes two matches a day. I easily went through a couple of 1000 rounds a week. This schedule continued for about 10 years. In the mid 90's I got luck at work and was assigned to the training academy and suddenly had access to unlimited ammo and training time so I increased the amount of training. This pretty much continued until a heart attack slowed me down for a few months in 1999. Then right back to it until 2004 when I slowed down to keep my promise to my youngest daughter that I would attend every school related function while she attended high school (which I did after missing almost every function the previous 15 years). Mid 2008 I started up again but work got in the way in 2009 and I shot maybe 5 matches all year.

Now we are looking at 2010, I am old, fat, and thanks to shooting 100's of 1000's of high pressure rounds every year for nearly 25 years have bad elbows and hands, the knee's are about gone, and a broken back from my Marine Corp days has finally learned to talk to me every day. I have gone from being extremely competitive anywhere, shooting anything, to being uncompetitve to the overall win and that takes a lot of fun out of it. Alot of the guys I shot with over the years have stopped because their lack of competitiveness takes alot of the fun out of the game. Most of the people who are willing to give up enough to focus on their game enough to reach their goals, aren't willing to accept so much less then that at the range. They reach out to other sports or games where they still have a chance to earn a competitive place within the sport.

This sport, unlike almost every other sport, does nothing to honor the acheivements of it's memberships past acheivements. Once you are no longer capable of winning there is only room for you as another face in the crowd. Maybe this is as it should be, may not, but it is probably a large reason why the great shooters from the past don't feel welcome or recognized and why they move on to other sports or games. I continue to play this game but on a much reduced level ( and my game really shows it) but only because my youngest has decided to compete.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Bob Hostetter

[Jake Di Vita]

Since Jake used himself as an example I'll go with that. Jake had a goal of shooting a 3second El Pres. Alot of people told him he couldn't do it. He knew in his mind that he could. Jake admitted he hates losing but I think(I could be wrong and Jake correct me if I'm wrong) he had to prove to himself that it could be done. He knew it could be done. The people telling him he couldn't do it did nothing but throw fuel on the fire. I was there watching him shoot and the brass, lead and fire was flying. I think that is what really drives people more than most understand. You can look in the mirror and know you achieved your goal. The fight for the win is not with everyone else but within ourselves.

Yeah, you aren't very far off the mark there at all.

Like you said, I knew it could be done. A part of that was proving it to whoever thought (and prodded) that it couldn't be done. I've never been much for setting limitations on ourselves. Men of integrity expect to be believed, and when they aren't they let time prove them right.

And for what it's worth, if I didn't love the sport, I wouldn't be a part of this forum.

I am not actively competing, very true. The reason, much like John said, was I simply had to make a decision for the betterment of my life. Just because I'm currently inactive in the sport, doesn't mean I'm not training though.

I won't come back until I'm ready - mentally, physically, and spiritually.

[JThompson]

First of all I am not a pro shooter, never have been, and never will be, but I have been a Master since the very early 90's and a couple of years ago screwed up and made GM in Limited. I have been competing in either USPSA or USPSA type matches since approximately 1984, my orginal membership number was in the low 4000's and my life number is in the very low 2000's. I started playing this game after it was suggested to me by a guy a bought a gun of from that I should shoot these matches to learn how to use the gun. At the time, as a hobby, we were racing boats, having given up racing Sprint Cars because it had gotten to expensive. I am extremely competitive in nature with a strong desire to win at whatever I do. When I was younger, you could say I was driven to win to a fault.

When I started shooting I enjoyed it and immediately decided that it would be fun to get good enough to win so I sit out to do just that. I took a class from J. Micheal Plaxco, laid out a training program, and starting praticing for an hour every morning before work and every day after work. I shoot at least one match every Saturday and Sunday, sometimes two matches a day. I easily went through a couple of 1000 rounds a week. This schedule continued for about 10 years. In the mid 90's I got luck at work and was assigned to the training academy and suddenly had access to unlimited ammo and training time so I increased the amount of training. This pretty much continued until a heart attack slowed me down for a few months in 1999. Then right back to it until 2004 when I slowed down to keep my promise to my youngest daughter that I would attend every school related function while she attended high school (which I did after missing almost every function the previous 15 years). Mid 2008 I started up again but work got in the way in 2009 and I shot maybe 5 matches all year.

Now we are looking at 2010, I am old, fat, and thanks to shooting 100's of 1000's of high pressure rounds every year for nearly 25 years have bad elbows and hands, the knee's are about gone, and a broken back from my Marine Corp days has finally learned to talk to me every day. I have gone from being extremely competitive anywhere, shooting anything, to being uncompetitve to the overall win and that takes a lot of fun out of it. Alot of the guys I shot with over the years have stopped because their lack of competitiveness takes alot of the fun out of the game. Most of the people who are willing to give up enough to focus on their game enough to reach their goals, aren't willing to accept so much less then that at the range. They reach out to other sports or games where they still have a chance to earn a competitive place within the sport.

This sport, unlike almost every other sport, does nothing to honor the acheivements of it's memberships past acheivements. Once you are no longer capable of winning there is only room for you as another face in the crowd. Maybe this is as it should be, may not, but it is probably a large reason why the great shooters from the past don't feel welcome or recognized and why they move on to other sports or games. I continue to play this game but on a much reduced level ( and my game really shows it) but only because my youngest has decided to compete.

Bob,

A very thought provoking post....

JT

[moverfive]

An interesting observation Bob......when I started this insane game back in the early 90's at Norco, you were definitely one of the better shooters there. And anyone that has ever played this game that was lucky enough to be around clubs with several top shooters (like I was in Norco), they probably knew then and really know now how lucky they were to be in that environment. Maybe there isn't a lifetime achievement award, but shooting with and around folks like you made the sport fun and brought out the competitive goals in me.

When folks reach a certain level of performance, so much of the challenge is gone. And especially when they realize that their skills/abilities (for whatever reason) are on decline, even more of the fun is lost. When the fun is on decline, so will the participation. So when I hear folks say that they aren't shooting regularly (or even at all) because they are not "winning" or dominating anymore.....I don't hear that 'winning is everything,' I hear that the "challenge" is gone, the competitive juices aren't flowing, and everything that fueled them to keep pressing in this sport is gone. Most folks don't play games like IPSC to 'dominate,' they play to see where their potential is.

And when that "drive" is gone or perceived potential has been met and something else presents itself that does offer a real challenge, well, guess where that person's attention will now be shifted? The typical IPSC shooter is competitive and thrill seeking. If one or both of those aspects are gone or severely diminished, we move on to something else.....and do so quickly. That is what I hear when GM's/M's quit this sport.........

[dirtypool40]

Not that I am one of "those top shooters" but as I fit the M/GM class, I figured I would chime in.

I had a tough couple of years, was on the edge of a rough divorce at the 06 Nats, and got laid off two weeks before 07. I really didn't shoot well at either, a clear head is invaluable at big events, and it made me take a hard look at things.

I was explaining our sport to someone,how much I loved it, the great people, and how much fun I had.... how hard I worked at it. Then it got to finances, and I explained how I was spending on my hobby, while I was really struggling, and the answer became pretty obvious.

No, a local match once in a while isn't that bad, but traveling to matches got expensive, components sky rocketed, gun prices topped $3k. With a few weeks off for rest, holidays, family, job, and weather, let's say you are "active" 30 weeks a year.

Add it up:

• a new gun every year or two, new ears, cleats, mags or parts here and there (call it $1500 a year for gear conservatively)...
  
• and let's say you "only" shoot 20k a year, that's what? About $3500?
  
• Plus hitting "only" 4-5 big matches a year, at easily $500 per with travel expenses, plus nationals or World Shoot.
  
• Practice once or twice a week (call it 40 practices a year), shoot one local a week (let's say 30 locals a year), keep your gear current, and shoot 4-5 matches a year, plus one nationals, you easily spend something upwards of $10k a year CASH on a hobby.
  

And that's before 3-gun, the World Shoot, IDPA, crossing into SS or PROD.

Sure, switching to PROD would make buying NEW gear cheaper, and ammo is less expensive than .40 JHP, (although still 2x what it used to be).

I don't think it's about being an M/GM, those numbers would be very similar for any avid, active IPSC junky.

Even though I know I am "past my prime" and no threat to knock off the top dogs, the love, lust and drive are all still there. It's not about sour grapes for the field getting tougher, I never looked for an easy win or a soft field. I am the guy who will only switch divisions to shoot WITH the toughest guys instead of avoiding them.

I LOVE guiding a new shooter through their first match, and "matching up" with another guy my speed (whatever that is) and competing tooth and nail to the last stage.

Simple, sad truth, I just couldn't afford it.

Edited March 3, 2010 by dirtypool40

[AWLAZS]

Is this a thread about why did people stop shooting or why don't they post anymore? I miss the great threads about cross over and roll etc. What happened to the GM posters who can explains things so clearly with a keyboard?

Hey Eric nice to see ya.

Randy

[dirtypool40]

Is this a thread about why did people stop shooting or why don't they post anymore? I miss the great threads about cross over and roll etc. What happened to the GM posters who can explains things so clearly with a keyboard?

Hey Eric nice to see ya.

Randy

LOL thanks Randy, how've you been bud?

I am still here as a resource if I can help at all. Feel free to email me or call any time.

[Jake Di Vita]

Most stuff has just been covered ad nauseum. There are over a million posts here now....original questions are few and far between.

[CHA-LEE]

I came into Practical Shooting from a previous highly completive racing hobby. I competed in my last hobby for 20 years. I gave that hobby all that I had in time, money, and dedication to reach and exceed all of my goals. I worked hard enough at it to be a fully factory sponsored by various companies and didn’t have to pay a dime for anything I needed for racing. I competed at local, regional, national and international levels with pretty good success across the board. I was into it all the way and gave it all I could from every vantage point I could think of. I tested and retested every possible combination of racing gear or technique in a never ending desire to find that next advantage even if it was ever so slight. That is what it is to be highly competitive and what is needed to truly champion your craft. But more importantly it was a really fun thing to do.

The last few years I raced I was in maintenance mode. I knew what it took to maintain my skill level and more importantly I knew what it took to take my game to the next level. Even though I was pretty much on “easy street” when it came to being sponsored and winning regional/national level races wasn’t too hard. I knew I didn’t have the motivation, time or the desire to dedicate what it would take to become the absolute best. The goal was within reach if I wanted it, but it just wasn’t worth the effort to me. The return on investment just wasn’t equitable to me. Thus I coasted along at the same level doing the same thing I had done for so many years. This was the maintenance mode and I was at that point in my racing for two years. I guess I was waiting or hoping for something to change. Maybe I was waiting for me to change or for another opportunity to present its self? I am not totally sure, even to this day. But I clearly remember when I made up my mind to quit racing. I was at a national race, in the middle of the event and doing quite well I might add, and I simply asked myself “Is this still fun? Is this still worth all of the effort?”. I was actually kind of shocked when the answer was almost instantaneously “NO it isn’t!!!”. As simple as that sounds that was it, I was done. I had explored every challenge and facet of the sport and knew the answers to all of the questions, all of the “What if’s” some might say. There was no more challenge to it, no more fun. Sure I had built countless friendships through my years of racing and could find something to laugh about at every race. But at the core, it just wasn’t fun any more so it didn’t make sense doing it.

Just like flipping off a light switch I simply turned off my racing. I called all of my sponsors, thanked them for all of their support, and let them know I was done racing. Then returned whatever equipment they wanted back and sold the rest save for a few memento’s. I got rid of everything else related to the hobby as I truly would never need it again. This was a shock to a lot of my fellow racers as they only seen it as insane to walk away from the “Gravy Train” sponsorship deals that I had or throw away my racing skills. Then to unload all of my stuff and have nothing left almost made a couple of peoples head almost explode in confusion. But that’s how I had to do it. I had to be DONE, totally and completely DONE.

My new competitive hobby is now practical pistol shooting. Its fun and the effort I put into it is worth it, so I shoot and enjoy it. My long term goals with shooting are not the same as they were with racing, but it really shouldn’t be. I am at a different “Place” in my life and my goals are going to be different. My racing had taught me a lot of lessons on many fronts that I wish to not repeat.

With all of that said, for the topic at hand, and from my previous hobby experience, it is simply easier to make an abrupt clean cut from a hobby that you don’t find fun or worth the effort any more. Everyone has different goals and is on a different path, so there will never be a universal reason as to why someone simply walks away from any given hobby or passion that they use to work at with all of their effort. There shouldn’t be a universal reason as we are all different and unique are we not? All I can do is give you my vantage point on the subject. Is my vantage point right or wrong? The validity of it does not matter as it is what it is and nothing more.

Maybe some day I will have to walk away from shooting just as I did with my racing. But I hope that whenever that is, I am making the choice to quit for the right reasons. Who knows, maybe I can still be shooting until the end of my days and still feel that its worth the effort and is fun? If that’s how it goes then I will be fine with that as it will be something I feel is worth doing and enjoy. In the end, that’s all that really matters isn’t it?

[mlmiller1]

Cha-lee, thanks a lot for the openness & the insight. Your last few sentences were really the crux of the whole issue. When it isn't enjoyable anymore, it is time to quit. Sometimes for a time, sometimes forever. For most everyone on here, shooting is a hobby. We make it into a lifestyle, affecting all aspects of our lives but in the end, it is a hobby. It should be/has to be/must be fun or we need to stop.

Nice discussion. Let's celebrate the folks that have been doing this for a long time, whether they be GM or D shooters. Talk to the old-timers, enjoy their "war" stories. Good for them & for us. When they are unable to shoot or compete due to physical or financial reasons, let's let them know we are grateful for what they have done for us. Thank you guys that have been around since way back!

My present shooting buddy is a 4 digit member kind of guy. Super Senior, I think. We travel to matches together & I never get tired of hearing about way back when. He still gives it his all & we have a great time. There is a lot to learn from these guys, too. Even if our scores wind up higher than theirs in the end, they still deserve our respect & they have plenty to offer if we just listen.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox. Sad when the old timers "go missing".

MLM