What does your club do about DQs?

[jmorris]

I have never seen a new shooter get DQ’ed our club does a pretty good job at new shooters briefing and mentors. When a DQ does happen it’s not a mad time, your more than welcome to stay and tape you just have to put the pistol up.

[sslav]

I think it depends on why.

I disagree. It really does not depend on why. If a D.Q. offense is committed, a D.Q. should be issued.

I've shot courses (which in my opinion shouldn't have been designed this way) that required going to about a 170 to get around an obstacle, and shoot a target, so I would think some leniency would be in order there, if a shooter broke 180

No. If the shot is available at 170 then it is your responsibility to take it at 170 or 175 or 180 but not at 181. The only reason to D.Q. yourself here is because of not paying attention or going too fast. Neither of which is a valid excuse to violate safety rules.

Likewise, I think the "finger" warnings are OK.

They are OK if the shooter's finger is too close to being inside the trigger guard or if R.O. is unsure if the finger is inside trigger guard. If the finger is in fact inside the trigger guard during a reload or movement, its a D.Q.

There are some rules that people aren't going to be too aware of their first time in a match, and others which anyone w. a modest exposure to safe gun handling should be aware of.

Again I strongly disagree. Until it becomes automatic, your focus should be first and foremost on safety. Everything else is secondary. It all comes down to awareness of where your muzzle and your trigger finger. And there is really no flexibility to be had here.

[Duane Thomas]

Let's try to keep the focus on the OP's original questions of "What does your club do about DQs?" This is beginning to turn into a disagreement of opinion where every person defends their personal ideas while rejecting anything that disagrees with them - and that is not what these forums, and the IDPA Rules forum in particular, is about.

[Aristotle]

Let's try to keep the focus on the OP's original questions of "What does your club do about DQs?" This is beginning to turn into a disagreement of opinion where every person defends their personal ideas while rejecting anything that disagrees with them - and that is not what these forums, and the IDPA Rules forum in particular, is about.

The only problem with that Duane is, the original question is flawed. There is no way we can answer that question. I have never seen a "club" hold a timer. Only individuals. I have never heard of, nor attended a meeting with other RO's on how "we" would collectively decide on, for a particular instance.

So in essense, this questions is a lot about "what you would do, as an RO."

Edited February 11, 2010 by Aristotle

[Duane Thomas]

Let's try viewing the question as, "How is this handled at your club?" The idea being - and this doesn't strike me as at all unrealistic - that the club may well have a policy in this area. I don't want to have to shut down this thread, but if it continues much longer in the direction it was going, I'm going to have no choice.

[Steve J]

And specifically in relation to new shooters. Their concern is attracting and keeping new shooters.

[mhop]

i believe this is what the op is looking for

MATCH DISQUALIFICATION POLICY

ABOUT SAFETY:

Safety is always everyone’s most important priority. Talk to a Safety Committee Member any time you have a question about anything having to do with safety. If you don’t know who the Safety Committee members are, ask a Range Officer, Board member or at the match sign-in table.

SAFETY COMMITTEE:

Safety Committee members are the Match Director, Pistol Coordinator and Long Gun Coordinator.

RULES:

All Match Disqualifications (DQ) shall be handled in accordance with the current rules of USPSA (at the date of adoption of this policy, USPSA Rule Book 14th Edition 2001 Sections 10.2 – 10.5. pertain).

RANGE OFFICERS:

Note the reason for the DQ and the time and date on the score sheet of the competitor receiving the DQ. Tell the competitor receiving the DQ that they are prohibited from participating in any remaining courses of fire in the match – this includes the shotgun and rifle portions of the match. Immediately give the score sheet to a member of the Safety Committee. The Safety Committee member will notify the Range Officers for the other stages of the match of the DQ.

DQ RECORDS:

A representative of the Board will keep a written record of all DQs and actions of the Safety Committee. The records will be made available to any Club member upon request.

COMPETITOR’S 1st DQ:

Safety Committee member makes the requisite entry in the written records.

COMPETITOR’S 2nd DQ within a twelve-month period:

The competitor’s Club shooting privileges are suspended until he or she satisfies any safety orientation or equipment changes required by the Safety Committee.

The Safety Committee action may be appealed to the entire Board of Directors. The Board of Director’s decision is final.

COMPETITOR’S 3rd DQ within a twelve-month period:

The competitor’s Club shooting privileges are suspended for a period of time to be determined by the Safety Committee, but in no case shall the suspension be less than three months. In addition, the Safety Committee may impose other conditions for reinstatement, which conditions must be met to the satisfaction of the Safety Committee before reinstatement.

The Safety Committee action may be appealed to the entire Board of Directors. The Board of Director’s decision is final.

[dmshozer1]

Thank you for giving me the answer I wanted to hear!

AS a long time RO and SO,it has always been my policy to enforce safety rules.

When I give the safety course, I make it very clear the rules have to be enforced

because of the nature of the game.

At our next club meeting,I will refer the members to this thread. I think that will

clear the air on what to do about new shooter DQ's.

[dmshozer1]

Let's try to keep the focus on the OP's original questions of "What does your club do about DQs?" This is beginning to turn into a disagreement of opinion where every person defends their personal ideas while rejecting anything that disagrees with them - and that is not what these forums, and the IDPA Rules forum in particular, is about.

The only problem with that Duane is, the original question is flawed. There is no way we can answer that question. I have never seen a "club" hold a timer. Only individuals. I have never heard of, nor attended a meeting with other RO's on how "we" would collectively decide on, for a particular instance.

So in essense, this questions is a lot about "what you would do, as an RO."

I have been a RO or SO at many big matches, USPSA nationals,area matches and a lot of IDPA big matches.

Every morning before the match started,the RO's or SO's would meet to discuss how to handle things that may or may not happen, or to discuss things that had already happened just to be consistent with each other.

[Mark K]

All I will add, it the at East Alabama Gun Club, when a shooter is DQ'd (regardless of experience), we issue them a $5 Dairy Queen (DQ) gift card to soften the blow. I think it helps let them know that we appreciate them coming to the match, and hope to have them come back. I don't know that we have ever had any serious dust-ups over a DQ.

Mark K.

[Dan Hefta]

All I will add, it the at East Alabama Gun Club, when a shooter is DQ'd (regardless of experience), we issue them a $5 Dairy Queen (DQ) gift card to soften the blow. I think it helps let them know that we appreciate them coming to the match, and hope to have them come back. I don't know that we have ever had any serious dust-ups over a DQ.

Mark K.

I love that idea, I am going to Dairy Queen and getting some $5 gift cards. Dairy Queen allways cheers me up.

[Duane Thomas]

All I will add, it the at East Alabama Gun Club, when a shooter is DQ'd (regardless of experience), we issue them a $5 Dairy Queen (DQ) gift card to soften the blow.

That's absolutely brilliant. I love it!

You just have to watch out for the guys who will DQ for ice cream.

[Pstmstr]

I had to dq a new shooter last Saturday that had an AD way over the berm. I explained it to him, let him know I hope he came back, and invited him to a match this Sunday. I felt bad about it but still felt it was the right thing to do.

[Duane Thomas]

No DQ ice cream card? For shame.

[Mark K]

All I will add, it the at East Alabama Gun Club, when a shooter is DQ'd (regardless of experience), we issue them a $5 Dairy Queen (DQ) gift card to soften the blow.

That's absolutely brilliant. I love it!

You just have to watch out for the guys who will DQ for ice cream.

Hmmm, yes. You would have to ask at least one moderator here on the forum about that.

[Duane Thomas]

Don't ask, don't tell.

[Beretta Lover]

new people getg DQd like experienced people

they put their pistol away and get to watch the rest of the match

we tell them that we have to enforce the rules for everyone, to keep them and the entire group safe

usually a few experienced shooters end up coming forward quietly and to the new guy admitting that they have been sent to dairy queen themselves. Unless the new guy is a DB

1. breaking the 180

2. AD/ND into a prop up close or into the ground (6 feet or less I think)

3. dropping their pistol

4. pistol comes out of holster when going prone (for 3 gun matches)

5. grounding a pistol in an unsafe condition (like Benning this year when like 10 or more people got DQd for leaving their thumb safety off when they put it in the plastic box nailed on top of a barrel during a stage)this didnt happen to me because I have a decocker on my pistol, but it got alot of pretty good shooters. The people at Benning pais over $200 for the match fee, 2 or three nights for the hotel costs and airfare and food.

when they got DQd they were just DQd

[Lee King]

If you DQ a new shooter, it has been my experience they will either come back or they won't no matter what you do.

I've had to DQ 2 new shooters. I gave the new shooter briefing to both and covered at length the issues that got them the DQ. We spent a fair amount of time giving one of them pointers etc. Both DQ's were blatant. One turned to run uprange leading with the gun pointing at the RO (running backwards wasn't at all necessary on that stage and took us all by surprise), the other drew his gun while everyone was walking the stage and took a sight picture. We have had a lot of trouble with people (experienced shooters who know better too) handling their guns at their cars etc. so I've been spending time to talk about cold range etc. at the brienfing.

I talked to both of them afterwards and explained it happens. "I'VE been DQ'd as have a lot of others. Please come back" etc. They both understood why they were DQ'd and accepted responsibility. None of the "c'mon I wasn't that far past 180" like you sometimes get. They still didn't come back.

I'm sure part of it was embarassment. Maybe after some time they were pissed off. It could be they don't trust we will really welcome them back. Or they just didn't like it.

You have to remember we were all new shooters at some point and we managed to stick around. Do what you can to prevent it, but in the end it's still up to the shooter to come back.

[Dan Hefta]

At the club that I run, we are going to let new shooters shoot their first match for free with no score, we will coach them through the COF and make sure that they take there time and get their hits. The biggest issue with new shooters is making them feel welcome. I know this is the IDPA forum but it applies to USPSA too.

[RickB]

We draw, and I am not exaggerating, six to eight new shooters every month to our matches. Some are new to IDPA, having shot USPSA or some other formal competition, but some are really new to shooting. We conduct a match-day "orientation", that lasts maybe 45 minutes, and really, all that's required is to not screw up. New shooters are to make themselves known to the SOs in their squad, and I always offer whatever level of assistance they want or need, from warnings to coaching. I don't think we have had to DQ more than one or two new shooters - first match - in nine years. I don't think either of them came back, but maybe the DQ convinced them that they weren't cut out for competitive shooting? We did them a favor by getting it over with at the first match, before they hurt themselves or someone else? That is, I don't know that you should worry about the why. A whole lot of shooters that didn't DQ have decided not to return. I know a guy who DQ'd three times in as many months, went through a lengthy rehabilitation, and stuck with it. I think it has more to do with the individual, their personality and desire, than the how or why of the DQ.

[colt]

I read on here were the club gives gift certificates from Dairy Queen for ice cream . I was thinking of doing that and help smooth out a DQ with a with a DQ gift card for ice cream and encourage them to come back.

Brent

[Nik Habicht]

We have had a lot of trouble with people (experienced shooters who know better too) handling their guns at their cars etc.

In my experience that's hard behavior to break without a few DQs, if it's truly widespread.....

But, a couple of DQs, coupled with an announcement during the walk-through (no need to identify the competitor) that it occurred and unfortunately resulted in a match DQ, tends to alleviate the problem....

[xcelr8n]

We do not ask DQ'd shooters to leave. We have them put away their gear and encourage them to stay and help paste/reset etc. It's their choice. They can leave if they wish.

When I DQ a shooter I make it a point to not embarrass them. I make sure that the gun is safe and holstered. Then I pass the timer to another SO. I then take the shooter aside and let them know that they have been DQ'd and why. I do this semi-privately and without raising my voice. I'm not emotional, just a matter of fact about the whole thing.

I think that a good, new shooter course is important. Then have them shoot towards the end of the squad. Finally, have them SO'd closely by an experienced SO preferably with good mobility. If they can move they and stay close without running into the shooter.

[redmanfixit]

This is where there are great benefits to the social aspect of this sport. I notice that every club I shoot at has present, a core group from that area. Rarely do you find core groups in this sport (in my experience) so "cliquish" that you feel unwelcome. There a bit of reserve present though, till a person gets to be known. Given the potential consequences of mistakes by inattentive or poorly trained shooters, this is PERFECTLY reasonable. In most of the clubs in my area, a total stranger is encouraged to attend the safety briefing, perhaps a little more strongly than someone that comes in with a well known participant that might say " I shoot with this person all the time at ______ and they are doing well, I talked them into coming to this match today". Everyone finally must do the safety class but benefit of the doubt goes a long way to communicate openness. We let them know the safety rules. Firmly. Detail explanation of the policy and the admonishment that there is nothing personal involved in the DQ even if the RO is "adamant" in the force of the range commands. Usually a little humor since several of the "executives" in our area clubs are Purple Heart recipiants, and they'll inevitably pipe up and say "I been shot a couple times, and it hurts! Besides we shoot back!" or something like that.

After the DQ, when it happens, everyone is kind of "watching" the reaction. I know there have been times when we see a new shooter that makes everyone so uncomfortable that several of the "senior executives" ( many times LE ) will escort the unfortunate person the the gate hand them their gear and say " Bye now, don't come back", it can happen, but that's pretty rare. Nobody shoots on the clock or for score on the first visit to clubs in this area and they shoot free. So perhaps that's the "ice cream"!

Show up with a good attitude, willing to learn the sport and what happens is you overhear conversations offering consolation and offers for some coaching or suggestions on better technique.

One thing about this sport that makes me so proud of being a member of it, is how inclusive it is and how willing people are to help get someone a good start!

I've seen few sports where high level competitors are so available to just BS with, when you get squaded with them.

This creates a right use of peer pressure, I think. It is so cool when you see someone "get the bug". Often, they initially show up with who knows what kind of ideas about what they'll find, jittery as a junebug, and a couple matches later they've made new friends, they're well on the way to becomming safe responsible competitors. You watch them just blossem out. I think it's this aspect of IDPA and USPSA that's making them grow, as much as the fact is that it's fun! Sooner or later everybody is going to DQ, the important thing is everyone goes home safe and with a good story to tell!

[MemphisMechanic]

What does your club do about DQs?

The only thing you can do. Politely send them home.

I yelled "TRIGGER FINGER!" twice in the space of a week or three at one of our newer shooters. He then went to a defensive shooting school across town and shot himself in the leg.

Holstering Glock + finger on trigger = blood on ground

We warned him.

Random note:

I've since gone the other way with this one at our indoor matches - rules are stricter with all the new shooters around, than at your average major match. First yell of "FINGER!" is a procedural and a large "T" marked on your scoresheet. Second one is a DQ. Rulebook backs this up, FYI.

S 1. Unsafe gun handling will result in immediate

disqualification from the entire match.

Examples (but not limited to):

A. Endangering any person, including yourself.

B. Pointing muzzle beyond designated “Muzzle Safe Points”. A 180° rule does NOT exist and will NOT be grounds for DQ.

C. Handling a loaded firearm except while on the firing line.

D. Dropping a loaded firearm. If a contestant drops a loaded

firearm during a stage or string of fire, the SO will immediately

yell “STOP”. It will then be the task of the SO to pick up/recover the dropped firearm and render it safe and unloaded before returning it to the contestant. The contestant will be

disqualified from the entire event as well as any side events occurring with the match

E. Dangerous or repeated “finger in trigger guard” violations during loading, unloading, reloading, drawing, holstering, remedial action

Edited February 24, 2010 by MemphisMechanic