IPSC goes to 15 rds in production... Will USPSA follow ?

[PCC-1]

From what i have read on the IPSC Global Village forum, the IPSC assembly has changed the Production Division rules to limit the number of rounds in a magazine to 15. It was previously only limited by capacity. Will USPSA follow suit to 15? Should it be considered?

Appendix D4.pdf

[wide45]

No.

[Chuck Anderson]

Doubt it. IPSC made their rules more inclusive of many more guns. Opening USPSA to 15 would make many guns less competetive.

[Corey]

i hope not...

[Nik Habicht]

Given that there was a major rules revision mid last year, I'd say it's not likely.....

[HPD SRT]

Reloading is half the battle. If they do, I say minimum 45 rd ct per stage

[Flexmoney]

This gets beat around every so often. (try a search)

10 is a good number. Easy to keep track of (as an RO). It corresponds well with our L-10 division and with Minor in Single-Stack division. And, it allows our shooters to have a nice cross-over with their IDPA guns.

Plus, there are still a few 10-round states to take into consideration. (really, that is not that big of an issue in my mind).

10 rounds...that also allows for more of a challenge.,,which is why many of us are here.

[High Lord Gomer]

Limitting Production to 10 allows a larger field of guns to be competitive. Many only have 10 ro 12 round capacity and would no longer be competitive in a 15 round mag division.

Yes, I have 19 and 22 rounds mags for my M&Ps, but I'd rather shoot them with 10 rounds in Production so I *could* shoot an old S&W 2nd gen if I wanted to.

[kevin c]

I'm happy with 10 for play. (Wish it were otherwise for real, but, that's the state I'm in...)

[Nik Habicht]

Plus, there are still a few 10-round states to take into consideration. (really, that is not that big of an issue in my mind).

A lot of the production guns have 10 round mags available due to the Federal ban that expired 5+ years ago. Many of those guns are suitable for playing in all fifty states because of that.....

10 rounds...that also allows for more of a challenge.,,which is why many of us are here.

+1....

[Joe4d]

Why ?

Rule changes should only be used for limited reasons. To clarify exiisting rules, or to grow the sport. If Production class was dieing out and all the former shooters were stating the reason for leaving is a lack of allowed capacity I would say change it. But Production has been a huge success just the way it is. why mess with something that is working ? We already have two unlimited capacity divisions. many of the socalled production guns can be competitive witht he adition of a few parts and 140mm magazines.

[badchad]

I suppose I would prefer 15 rounds. Almost all guns that are competitive in Production carry at least that many now days, and it’s been my observation that new shooters showing up with a 13 round Glock 23 prefer to load it to capacity and shoot Limited than load down and shoot Production. In a match it would give more opportunities to shoot on the move as opposed to load and post up, load and post up. It would make Production more competitive in the overall match results. My mags all hold more than 15 anyway, and I’m betting most guys out there do too. Plus new shooters with just a couple extra mags would do better than having to compete with the 11 rounder in my pocket and the 5 tens on my belt. The two belt pouches they might have for IDPA would likely be good enough to start. So make it a poll and I’d vote this way.

But do I care that much? Not really. I’ve already bought all my mags and pouches, and I do appreciate the challenge of shooting the division as it is.

[spanky]

This gets beat around every so often. (try a search)

10 is a good number. Easy to keep track of (as an RO). It corresponds well with our L-10 division and with Minor in Single-Stack division. And, it allows our shooters to have a nice cross-over with their IDPA guns.

Plus, there are still a few 10-round states to take into consideration. (really, that is not that big of an issue in my mind).

10 rounds...that also allows for more of a challenge.,,which is why many of us are here.

Very good points. I agree 100%.

[jkatz44]

This gets beat around every so often. (try a search)

10 is a good number. Easy to keep track of (as an RO). It corresponds well with our L-10 division and with Minor in Single-Stack division. And, it allows our shooters to have a nice cross-over with their IDPA guns.

Plus, there are still a few 10-round states to take into consideration. (really, that is not that big of an issue in my mind).

10 rounds...that also allows for more of a challenge.,,which is why many of us are here.

Very good points. I agree 100%.

10 rounds. I think if Production went up to 15 rounds it wouldn't be as fun as having 10 rounds. Less reloads. If they move to 15 rounds, I might as well move to Limited.

[redwoods]

I suppose I would prefer 15 rounds. Almost all guns that are competitive in Production carry at least that many now days, and it's been my observation that new shooters showing up with a 13 round Glock 23 prefer to load it to capacity and shoot Limited than load down and shoot Production. In a match it would give more opportunities to shoot on the move as opposed to load and post up, load and post up. It would make Production more competitive in the overall match results. My mags all hold more than 15 anyway, and I'm betting most guys out there do too. Plus new shooters with just a couple extra mags would do better than having to compete with the 11 rounder in my pocket and the 5 tens on my belt. The two belt pouches they might have for IDPA would likely be good enough to start. So make it a poll and I'd vote this way.

But do I care that much? Not really. I've already bought all my mags and pouches, and I do appreciate the challenge of shooting the division as it is.

I agree with more rounds in the mag, but only because it would be easier for new shooters who tend to start shooting in production class.

Most production guns come with 2 or 3 magazines. It is easier for a new shooter to shoot their first match with what they probably already have....three magazines, one mag holder. The mag changes make it more difficult as they have to think more. If it were to be voted on based on getting new shooters to the line, I would vote for 12-15 rounds in the mag. I shoot production and am waiting on more mags for my new gun since it only came with three.

I like production with 10 rounds as it is now, at least for experienced shooters.

Randy

[High Lord Gomer]

New shooters at our local matches usually shoot limited so they can load up and not have to worry with as many mag changes.

[Graham Smith]

I am not an expert and don't play one on TV but...

It's worth noting that the IPSC rules actually appear to decrease the rounds loaded whereas changing USPSA to 15 would increase the rounds. The change appears to be designed to allow people to use any size magazine they want but with a 15 round load limit. This goes along with changes in USPSA rules that allow longer mags but without increasing the number of rounds.

[CocoBolo]

+1 on going with 15, I think we would have more new shooters opting for production division. This would make it easier on them for equipment only 3 mags instead of 5. For low cap we still have L10 and SS. This also gives them a better shot at getting further up the combined finish making for happier shooters.

[John Z Sr]

I say leave it alone, if you have the larger capacity mags, and want to use them, just shoot Limited and go for Alpha's

[AWLAZS]

It is common for a new person to show up for the first few matches with a 9mm and three mags. They shoot limited minor at first. I think stage planning and the reloads make production L10 fun to watch. I don't think it makes it easier for new people.

[lcs]

Not having data to back this up, but it is generally accepted many new shooters start in production.

Why? available off-the-shelf guns, ammunition is readily available, ammunition is cheaper than other divisions, you don't have to invest in reloading equipment. You don't have to support your local smith. You can pretty much work on your own gun should minor parts wear out.

Why do I hear a lot---I'd rather shoot production, but I hate all the mag changing!

IMHO, production is one of the hardest divisions in our sport and I think even more people whould shoot production if you allowed 15 round mags. You can not compare production to limited just because you up'd the mag rule to 15 for production. Production is always going to be minor and shooting limited minor sucks.

A USPSA poll (ONLINE) would be cheap to do and a way for the membership to be heard.

[chendersby]

If I had a vote and I do, NO.

[JFlowers]

You also need to look at the reasons behind the IPSC rule. The original IPSC Production rule was full magazines with a no mag modification to factory magazine rule. So people would modify aftermarket or buy aftermarket magazines that were +1 to the factory mags. This led to a lot of confusion and exploration of the limitations of the rules. The 15 round rule was a change to solve the issues and stop the race for that elusive one more round.

USPSA took a different tack. USPSA Production was 10 rounds limited from the start so that particular problem was never an issue. If USPSA Production needs to change, I think it should change because of a need to meet the market. Not because IPSC changed. The fact that many new shooters are showing up with a 9mm and few mags and pushed to Limited Minor rather than Production is the most compelling argument I have seen. But often its possible to borrow magazines and get them through that first match.

[LPatterson]

This is another subject where people are thinking about what is best for me because this is the way I want to do it. I doubt that you could get too many people in Hawaii to vote for your 15 round mag rules since they are prohibited from owning them. Also there are other states with restrictions to 10 or 12 based on when they were purchased. I agree Production is a difficult division because of its minor scoring not its round count because I also shoot Revolver which I hope has stabilized at 6. For awhile we had a round count race which I hope we won't reenter.

America became the country we are because people pulled together for a common goal but lately has become a welfare country of give me what I want because I'm (insert reason). If we dgo not change the way we think about things, we will discover what a great man once said (paraphrased) "If we do not pull together then we will surely hang separately".

[redwoods]

It is common for a new person to show up for the first few matches with a 9mm and three mags. They shoot limited minor at first. I think stage planning and the reloads make production L10 fun to watch. I don't think it makes it easier for new people.

Easier is shooting with the equipment you already have...ie. 3 mags and one double mag holder.

Easier is also not having to think about reloads all the time and just focusing on the shooting.

SHOOTING for new people is fun.....having to find and buy new mags, another mag holder, and worrying about where to reload or running dry a lot is not as much fun. It may deter people from trying USPSA.

What we need to think about is.....if we are interested in gaining more participation than our current growth rate, OR, pleasing the people who currently shoot production. I don't know, but that should be the reason USPSA makes a decision one way or the other.

Randy