Bullet diameter limiting OAL?

[KrymSIX]

So I've just started to get into reloading and I'm using .401 coated bullets from eggleston munitions. I can load out to 1.14 but then the bullets won't fully pass the plunk and spin test. I can get them to plunk but not spin freely in the chamber. 

 

The gun was purchased used but seems to be practically new. I'd like to load a little longer to help with feeding reliablity. The gun will run factory ammo but if I could load out a little longer it would mean the bullets would be even more in line with the chamber. The barrel in question is a Schuemann Ultimatch (not the aet type). I'm using a redding grx full length resizer to size the brass beforehand. 

 

Would switching to .400 coated rounds help with being able to load out a little longer or should I try .400 fmj/hp? 

 

Thanks as always, 

Alex

[Racinready300ex]

I would switch to Blue Bullets and use the code Ennis to save 5%

 

Personally I'd probably run 400's. But, your chamber could be to short to load any longer. If so you'll probably need it reamed a little. You can ship your barrel to someone and get it done cheap and quick.  I'd send it to Gan's Guns, he's done a few of my barrels. I don't think he has a reamer for oversized bullets though. You can send him a dummy round (400) the length you want to load, he'll cut the chamber to work.

 

Did the previous owner give you any load data? Was he able to load long with different bullets?

 

[DesertTortoise]

The profile (shape) of the bullet determines the limit of how long you can seat it.

[Ssanders224]

Desert is correct.  The ogive (shape) is the main determining factor in how long you can load for your specific barrel.  Changing the diameter .001" (given that the ogive remains the same) will have little to no affect.  However, going to a .400" diameter bullet COULD have an affect on how accurately your barrel shoots that particular bullet.  Some guns will tumble a smaller, coated bullet. 

 

What model gun is it? 

 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, KrymSIX said:

So I've just started to get into reloading and I'm using .401 coated bullets from eggleston munitions. I can load out to 1.14 but then the bullets won't fully pass the plunk and spin test. I can get them to plunk but not spin freely in the chamber. 

 

The gun was purchased used but seems to be practically new. I'd like to load a little longer to help with feeding reliablity. The gun will run factory ammo but if I could load out a little longer it would mean the bullets would be even more in line with the chamber. The barrel in question is a Schuemann Ultimatch (not the aet type). I'm using a redding grx full length resizer to size the brass beforehand. 

 

Would switching to .400 coated rounds help with being able to load out a little longer or should I try .400 fmj/hp? 

 

Thanks as always, 

Alex

Do you KNOW the gun needs longer rounds to be reliable? You need to look at different bullet makers and their profiles. Bullet nose shapes vary WILDLY from brand to brand. You just need a longer skinnier profile. Or you can get the barrel reamed as mentioned. Matt Cheely does tons of these jobs. Easy, cheap and fast turn around.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, 57K said:

I would try shortening to 1.135" to see if they'll plunk and spin. 1.140" is max SAAMI spec. There won't be any difference in feed reliability. On your next purchase you might want to consider a coated SWC. You can get them with or without a lube groove depending on the vendor. With a SWC, the first point of contact will be the shoulder of the bullet.

Depending on the platform many run .40's out to 1.20 for reliability.

[KrymSIX]

This is a 2011 and I can see the bullets are impacting a little low and relying on the feed ramp to chamber the rounds. 

 

I was able to speak to the previous owner and he said JHP at 1.18. 

 

So I think the smaller bullet diameter and a pointier bullet profile are needed. 

 

Thanks guys. 

[Ssanders224]

23 minutes ago, KrymSIX said:

This is a 2011 and I can see the bullets are impacting a little low and relying on the feed ramp to chamber the rounds. 

 

I was able to speak to the previous owner and he said JHP at 1.18. 

 

So I think the smaller bullet diameter and a pointier bullet profile are needed. 

 

Thanks guys. 

 

Contacting the feed ramp is normal. 

Again, the smaller bullet diameter will not have an affect on this.  It is the bullet profile causing the issue.   Change to a well known bullet that a lot of people are running, and you'll be GTG. 

[Furrly]

Like others have mentioned, different bullet profiles will load to different lengths. With 2011 you want to load as long as possible.. 1.18 or Longer. Buy sample packs from the different companies that make coated bullets.  My experience has been favorable with blue bullets and Eggleston... 400 not there 401. 

[broadus123]

I had a problem with a coated bullet manufacturer that changed from .400 to ,401. Some measured .402. I load at 1.20 and started getting bullets that would not seat, jammed my gun. Thats how I found the size had been changed. Now I am shooting blue bullets which are .400

[StuckinMS]

Broadus123 is on to something.  I also have swapped to Blue Bullets for the same reason.  When a company changes size or their restriking dies wear out the entire profile is affected and will have adverse effects in the loading process.  I would do like Sarge says.  Buy several sample packs , load 1 round at a time, barrel check that round until you find the "max" length for that bullet and your barrel.  Then load 5 put them in a magazine and cycle them through your gun. Then load 20 and shoot them and so on.  Each bullet company may end up at a different length.  Reliability and accuracy is what the goal is though.  Good luck And be patient.

[KrymSIX]

On 1/13/2018 at 6:28 AM, Furrly said:

Like others have mentioned, different bullet profiles will load to different lengths. With 2011 you want to load as long as possible.. 1.18 or Longer. Buy sample packs from the different companies that make coated bullets.  My experience has been favorable with blue bullets and Eggleston... 400 not there 401. 

 

Funny you mention that as EM .401s are what I'm having issues with. 

[KrymSIX]

The rounds plunk and spin at 1.14. Beyond that I could get rounds to plunk but not spin. Like as far out as 1.17 would plunk but not spin. 

 

Again, the previous owner told me JHP at 1.18 were running in the gun before I got it. 

 

I may place a trial order for Blue bullets and maybe some others. I may try some SWC too. The shorter OAL is feeding fine, but its just hittinf the ramp a little below halfway up, I'd like to get it to connect with the feed ramp about 3/4 up the ramp so its relying a little less on the ramp. 

 

It's not an issue yet, but it just seems like setting up to run the proper ammo length will maximize reliablity and minimize wear and tear. 

 

Thanks for all the help and great suggestions

[StuckinMS]

9 hours ago, KrymSIX said:

The rounds plunk and spin at 1.14. Beyond that I could get rounds to plunk but not spin. Like as far out as 1.17 would plunk but not spin. 

 

Again, the previous owner told me JHP at 1.18 were running in the gun before I got it. 

 

I may place a trial order for Blue bullets and maybe some others. I may try some SWC too. The shorter OAL is feeding fine, but its just hittinf the ramp a little below halfway up, I'd like to get it to connect with the feed ramp about 3/4 up the ramp so its relying a little less on the ramp. 

 

It's not an issue yet, but it just seems like setting up to run the proper ammo length will maximize reliablity and minimize wear and tear. 

 

Thanks for all the help and great suggestions

Wish you a short road to the right load!

[Furrly]

9 hours ago, KrymSIX said:

The rounds plunk and spin at 1.14. Beyond that I could get rounds to plunk but not spin. Like as far out as 1.17 would plunk but not spin. 

 

Again, the previous owner told me JHP at 1.18 were running in the gun before I got it. 

 

I may place a trial order for Blue bullets and maybe some others. I may try some SWC too. The shorter OAL is feeding fine, but its just hittinf the ramp a little below halfway up, I'd like to get it to connect with the feed ramp about 3/4 up the ramp so its relying a little less on the ramp. 

 

It's not an issue yet, but it just seems like setting up to run the proper ammo length will maximize reliablity and minimize wear and tear. 

 

Thanks for all the help and great suggestions

If your getting the rounds to plunk at 1.17. They will cycle fine.. 

Your going to have to tune your mag tubs to get the rounds to hit at least half up or higher on the feed ramp.. 

Atlas gun works has  great tutorials on mag tuning.. 

[Furrly]

On YouTube 

[promtcy]

I had a similar experience with the same manufacturer. I'm running a Para P16.40 with the stock barrel. I actually couldn't use the .401's at all. They wouldn't plunk and spin unless the shoulder was completely inside the case. Got some 180 grain Blue Bullets and I can load them to 1.2 with no trouble at all. They have also proven to be very accurate for me. 

 

In my 9mm Para I can load a .356 truncated cone but it has to be very short. I can load a .356 round nose profile longer than the truncated cone. What works best for me is a .355 round nose in that gun. So in some cases it's not just the size, it's the size and profile. 

 

Good Luck.

[dsu96]

I had issues running .401 moly coated in my blaster.  Thought it was related to OAL but turns out the extra .001 was causing issues.  Switched to .400 plated and I'm able to load to whatever OAL I want that'll still run in the gun and mags.

[zzt]

Unless your chamber is actually short, you don't have to ream it.  What you need reamed is the leade or throat.  I just went though that with a 45 ACP barrel I fitted.  After fitting the chamber depth was .8988.  That's perfect for a 45, but my SWC and TC ammo would not chamber.  If I reduced the OAL by .025" they would, but then I had feeding problems.  So I brought some 1.240" SWC rounds and some 1.200" TC rounds to the gunsmith and had him throat ream so the did plunk and spin.  Chamber depth is the same as it was.  Only throat reaming was required.  It cost $10 and he did it while I waited.

[KrymSIX]

Just wanted to check back in and thank everyone here for their insight. Got .400 Egglestons and had dummies made up up to 1.18 that plunk and spin perfectly. Now I've just gotta load up some rounds and decide if I want 180 grains or 165s. 

 

Thanks so much again everyone. Really appreciate how helpful everyone is on BE. 

 

Thanks, 

Alex

[StuckinMS]

7 hours ago, KrymSIX said:

Just wanted to check back in and thank everyone here for their insight. Got .400 Egglestons and had dummies made up up to 1.18 that plunk and spin perfectly. Now I've just gotta load up some rounds and decide if I want 180 grains or 165s. 

 

Thanks so much again everyone. Really appreciate how helpful everyone is on BE. 

 

Thanks, 

Alex

Anytime and you are welcome.

[IDescribe]

KrymSix, bullet to barrel fit is extremely important in terms of accuracy.  I wouldn't make up my mind that the solution to your problem is to drop to bullets of a diameter of .400 without legit accuracy testing to make sure accuracy doesn't suffer, and I mean extensive benched groups at 25 yards.

Here are some basics.  You have an interior barrel diameter from land to land and from groove to groove.  Your land to land ID is smaller than your bullet diameter so that the rifling lands engrave the surface of the bullet.  Assuming they engrave deeply enough, they will turn the bullet at the same rate of twist as the rifling.  If they do not engrave deeply enough, the bullet can "jump" lands, mean that it will start engraving, then the lateral forces of the bullet's surface against the lands will cause the bullet to break free of the rifling and the grooves will slip over a set of lands.  That is horrible for accuracy.  Jacketed bullets have tougher surfaces than lead, so you do not have to engrave as deeply into jacketed bullets as you need to into lead, or coated lead, or plated.  Jackets are tougher, so a shallower engraving still holds the bullet in place than what is needed for lead.  This is why standard diameters for lead bullets are .001 larger than for jacketed.  If you're shooting .40, and standard diameter for .40 lead and coated lead bullets is .401, then you're probably better off with .401, and maybe even .402.    Plenty of people dedicated to casting their own lead bullets will tell you that .001 even .002 larger than standard is best for accuracy with lead.  

To address your issue specifically -- don't get too hung up on OAL.  The distance from the headstamp to the nose of the bullet has no ballistic effect.  The nose doesn't touch the barrel.  It might make a difference to feeding reliability, but if it feeds reliably, you shouldn't care one bit about meeting some arbitrary OAL number.  How far the bullet base is seated into the case -- that has a ballistic effect.  That affects the initial size of the combustion chamber, which affects the powder burn and pressures.  AND how far away the bullet is from the rifling -- THAT has a ballistic affect.  But you can have a cartridge at OAL 1.18 and a cartridge at OAL 1.12, and depending on their respective bullet profiles, have both bullets exactly .005 off the rifling.  So again, how far the bullet is off the rifling can have a ballistic effect, but that is completely different from OAL.  If it feeds reliably and is accurate, then it feeds reliably and is accurate.  Who cares what the OAL is?  "This load feeds and functions perfectly and is super accurate, but I'd really rather have a cartridge that's four hundredths of an inch longer because someone said I should."  ????  Makes no sense, right?  Don't be that guy.    Be the guy who is focused on results.

 

If there is an OAL with a bullet that plunks and spins freely, THAT is your max OAL with that bullet.  That's it.  You should probably knock .005 - .015 off of that max for an initial working OAL to make sure the natural variation in your loading process won't seat any bullets long enough to get the bullet into the rifling. 

 

Do NOT look at load data as a recipe.  It's not a recipe.  It's a field report.  A recipe is what you SHOULD do.  A field report is what the ballisticians DID do.  That's what they're giving you -- what THEY did and what THEIR results were.  If your max OAL is shorter than theirs, you use YOUR OAL but with their powder data, and adjust charge weights downward IF the difference in OAL is large.  If OAL difference is not large, using starting load will cover you, then use a chronograph not to exceed their max velocity.  

Going for narrower bullets to solve a problem that isn't truly caused by fat bullets, but by not making your OAL short enough is likely introducing other negative factors into your load.   Always always always determine your max OAL first, YOUR max OAL with that bullet, and do it with EVERY bullet, then work from there.

 

Good luck.   

[KrymSIX]

@IDescribe You're right in that the .400 isn't the be all end all and the OAL doesn't matter as much as safety, accuracy and reliability. 

 

That said, with .401 coated bullets I was running the cases through the GRX full length sizing die, sizing, loading etc. Then to get them to even gauge or chamber properly I had to run the loaded rounds through the GRX. That is loading to or close to SAAMI spec length. 

 

I also experienced a fair amount of smoke after about 200 rounds. I then ran a magazine of factory jacketed bullets and then ran a clean patch and it was pretty evident there was some poly coating residue that was coming off from the .401s . The .400s that I've run through it so far have not had this issue. Only about 100 rounds.

 

So, to make my entire loading process significantly easier I'm going to use .400s. The fact that they let me load longer isn't a necessity, but it is nice in that it will help with reliability in feeding. 

 

Every round drops effortlessly in the gauge where the .401s, even after the GRX would wiggle their way down. These just drop straight in without having to post size the rounds. 

[Furrly]

Conclusion,. 401 are not for your pistol,. 400 are.. 

That's what I  concluded  as well!