Tight groupings at up to 12 yards, slop further out.

[anonymouscuban]

Just what the titles says. Need help. Little bit of background.

 

I shot a gun for the 1st time about 14 months ago. I got my 1st pistol in March. I've been hitting the range consistently since then. I go at least once a week. More in the last month.

 

I have 2 pistols now, SP-01 and 1911 Loaded Target, both in 9mm. I shoot exclusively at paper, in an indoor range. I have been focusing on increasing the distance to target over time. I'm pretty darn good at up to 12 yards. Pretty tight groups. Within an inch when I am focused and not tired.

 

The problem is that once I push the target out beyond that, I got sloppy. I just don't get it.

 

What I mean by sloppy is my groupings are like 6 inches apart. All around the bullseye. All my shots still hit all on the 8.5x11 sheet of paper.

 

Am I being unrealistic? Should I expect to make 1 to 2 inch groups at distances of 15+ yards? What do you think is wrong? Is it just a matter of practicing more at these dustances?

 

I think its mental. I get a little anxious when I see the target is farther out and I lose my focus on fundamentals. At least it's what I think is happening.

 

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[Hi-Power Jack]

Could be the ammo?   What are you using?

 

Eyesight?   Can you see the front sight and the target clearly?

 

Is this freestyle?    or benched?

[anonymouscuban]

Could be the ammo?   What are you using?
 
Eyesight?   Can you see the front sight and the target clearly?
 
Is this freestyle?    or benched?

Hmm... I definitely have not ruled out ammo. Today I was shooting new S&B 115g brass FMJ. I also shoot Blazer Brass in 115g and 124g FMJ.

My eye sight is great. I see better than 20/20. Had LASIK about a year ago.

And this is all freestyle. Traditional grip. Isosceles stance although I do stand with my right foot slightly behind left.

Here is a video of me shooting. This was taken a couple of months ago. My grip may have changed a little since this was shot but not much. Unfortunately, you can't see the left hand from this angle. Hoping it's still helpful. Not sure if you see any iasues.

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[wgj3]

Still shooting offhand I bet. I would guess its the mental aspect of kinda psyching yourself out on how far away the target is. Gotta remember that any error at shorter distances is magnified the further away the target.

Just spend more time on it, and even move the target further back. I felt that once I discovered that I could hit targets well over 50yds away, shooting at 20yds became much less intimidating, etc.

[anonymouscuban]

5 minutes ago, wgj3 said:

Still shooting offhand I bet. I would guess its the mental aspect of kinda psyching yourself out on how far away the target is. Gotta remember that any error at shorter distances is magnified the further away the target.

Just spend more time on it, and even move the target further back. I felt that once I discovered that I could hit targets well over 50yds away, shooting at 20yds became much less intimidating, etc.

 

I think you're right. I know I instantly get in my head when I move the target back to end of the range. I like your idea of trying to shoot further distances. I am gonna try a different range. Outdoor with steal targets. The indoor maxes out at 20 yards. My thought is shooting at the outdoor with all the steal targets already staged at different distances is a more relaxed setting. Plus, just the different venue may help me get out of my head. Gonna see if I can make it out there next weekend. 

 

Did you notice any issues with my grip in the video?  

[wgj3]

There's about a million different schools of thought on grip, and I'm far from being particularly well-versed in any of them. Biggest thing to keep in mind on grip in my opinion is keeping your trigger finger relaxed and pulling directly rearward, keeping pressure somewhat balanced between your hands and doing it the same way every time/being consistent.

Edited August 7, 2017 by wgj3

[B585]

Disclaimer...I am far from a pro and am just about to celebrate my first year of beginning USPSA.  One thing I found that after shooting a couple of USPSA matches is that my trigger control became a problem because I was shooting faster than I was used to.  It took me a while to identify my problem because it wasn't present if I shot really slowly (slower than your video).  One thing that helped me to identify the problem was dry firing several times at 30+ yards while TRYING YOUR VERY BEST TO SIMULATE how you normally shoot.  For close range, I could get away with it, but for longer range, poor trigger control reared its ugly head.  

 

For factory ammo, I found Fiocchi to be very good in the cheap stuff category in 9mm.

 

Finally, since you already have a video on YouTube, make a copy 8x slower.  I could not appreciate a flinch except maybe on shot 4, but looking at it in very slow motion may help you identify if there is a flinch you aren't aware of that is catching up with you on longer distances.

 

Try shooting from a bench which will better help you determine the mechanical accuracy of your gun and ammo....you will never be more accurate than the mechanical accuracy of your setup.

Edited August 7, 2017 by B585

[RangerTrace]

My corrected vision is 20/20, but at 48 my reading vision has went to crap.  You are describing my shooting, when it comes to an indoor range.  With artificial lighting on an indoor range, I can shoot a 1" group at 7 yards.  Beyond that, they open up a lot.  It's purely because my eye can't focus on the front sight, so even though I try my best, I'm not keeping the exact same POA.  Outside in daylight, I don't have this issues at all....yet.

 

Could this be what's happening to you?

[Hi-Power Jack]

It's strange, but I've noticed that 12 yards indoors seems like the target is Very Far Away,

 

and outdoors at 12 yards it seems as though the target is too close to be a challenge  .....

 

Shoot outdoors,  from a bench (solid rest) and try some different types of ammo -

your gun might prefer a 147 grain bullet to a 115, or a different type ammo.

 

For many years, after I turned 50, I couldn't tell if it was me or the ammo or the gun -

but ten yards was great, and at 20 yards my shooting went to pot.   It turns out

since I got into Open that it was a combo of  all three  - the gun, the ammo and

my eyes with metal sights.

 

When I got my first BHP customized by EGW, I started shooting 1-2" groups at

25 yards, with metal sights - the old factory BHP just wasn't capable of shooting

small groups at 25 yards - but a tight gun mad a huge difference.     

[MemphisMechanic]

I can shoot a 2" group all day long on a freshly painted piece of steel at 25 yards, if the gun and ammo are capable of it and I take around 10 to 20 seconds between shots: actual slow fire.

 

Replace the situation with a paper target indoors and group size is typically 6-8" with the same gun and ammo.

 

If you can't consistently point the gun at the exact same spot because you can't SEE it blurred out but still legible with a hard front sight focus, you're never going to shoot tight groups.

 

For me at least, the problem is vision.

[TDA]

2 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

I can shoot a 2" group all day long on a freshly painted piece of steel at 25 yards, if the gun and ammo are capable of it and I take around 10 to 20 seconds between shots: actual slow fire.

 

Replace the situation with a paper target indoors and group size is typically 6-8" with the same gun and ammo.

 

Exactly, and I prove that to myself regularly, as I did again yesterday.

 

I have a gun that I can't shoot worth a damn at an indoor range with a paper target at 15 yds, but I can go to the outdoor range and put a single smudge in the center of a piece of steel at that same distance as long as I want to stand there and shoot at it.

[L3324temp]

The range looks well light but are you able to see the bullseye cleanly?

 

Maybe try some different size bulls eyes or perhaps different colors.

 

 

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[perttime]

When you are aiming, what are you looking at? Where is your focus?

 

For iron sight accuracy, you need to have the front sight in perfect focus. It is OK if the target or even rear sight get a little blurry. You have to see that front sight clearly for best accuracy.

 

At close range you may be able to see sights and target pretty well simultaneously. When you increase the distance, it becomes difficult and then impossible.

[benos]

Some offhand shooting tips here:

http://brianenos.com/pages/words#accuracy

[anonymouscuban]

Just got back from the range. I focused on shooting at 20 yards. It's the furthest I can shoot in this range. I shot 100 rounds. Concentrated on all the tips you guys gave me.

Making sure front sight is in focus. Worked on precision... aiming small and keeping my aim constant through a string. Tight grip. No limp wrist.

Result... much better. I had a few flyers but most of my strings were tight.

Target posted is my last 25 rounds. I was shooting 5 shot strings. Cadence was about a second, maybe two per round.

I felt much more relaxed today. I thinker that helped.

Is this decent shooting?

It's hard for me to judge. I am better than most of the folks I see at the range but they could all suck. LOL

BTW, This was shot with 115g S&B new ammo.

That's a quarter for scale.

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[Hi-Power Jack]

At my level of shooting, I'd be happy with this group, at 20 yards, offhand and firing 

a shot every second or two with iron sights.  

 

I bet you could improve the size of the group with a different ammo, though.

[perttime]

Some would call that rapid fire

 

You could try some slow fire some time. Just one shot at a time. Lower the pistol between shots (rest it on table if the range has one, finger off the trigger), relax your eyes and everything else. raise the pistol, aim, fire another shot. Aiming for too long isn't good either: you get tired and tense and start shaking.

[Antny]

There can be a number of reasons why this happens as mentioned by others ranging from lighting, the ammo, the gun itself to you. I would put it on a rest to sight it in to eliminate the gun being the problem. Then practice being mindful of your grip (higher the better) and your finger on the trigger. Too much finger is NG. Bad habits are less forgiving at greater distances when it comes to accuracy. There is no quick answer to the problem everyone is different. Maybe you should have someone knowledgeable watch you as you shoot.

[Droot]

It may help shooting from a bench at a much smaller bull.  Maybe 2 or 3" Black bull.   Concentrate on the front site,  squeeze slowly.   See how well your gun and ammo combination does.  Once you can see  small groups, they will be easier to achieve knowing you and the gun are capable.   

Try different ammo from the bench. 

 

The target you posted looks good except the two 9s.

 

 

David

[Blackstone45]

Focus on the front sight, equal light, equal height. A common mistake is people start their aiming with the sights aligned, then look past their sights trying to chase the center of the target. Then when the shot breaks, the sights were no longer aligned. Just accept that you can't hold absolutely still, let the sights circle around the middle of the target, but focus on ensuring they stay aligned at all times. Misaligned sights will throw a shot off much further than any natural drifting of your gun.

 

My shooting background is primarily in slow precision fire at 10 to 50 metres, beginning with air pistol and then cartridge pistol. I've only taken up practical in the past few months.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Blackstone45

[MemphisMechanic]

On 8/11/2017 at 5:53 PM, anonymouscuban said:

Is this decent shooting?

 

 

No one really stopped to address this question. YES. That is very solid shooting for a novice indeed!

 25 hits that would have been A’s on a USPSA target, indoors with crappy lighting on the sights? 

 

Plenty of guys win matches while shooting “2 shot groups” that size at the 20-25 yard targets, if you catch my drift.

 

It’s more than likely time to focus on moving faster and more efficiently if you want to improve at USPSA. Just revisit this skill often enough to make sure it stays sharp until you’re B or even A class, when you’ll need to tighten you accuracy up some again.

 

Quote

It's hard for me to judge. I am better than most of the folks I see at the range but they could all suck. LOL.

 

Yes. Accept that all indoor range customers suck: by the time you make B class, they will be staring at you from the next lane over like you’re a god.

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[anonymouscuban]

It's obviously been several months since I made this post. I do appreciate the continued help and replies. It's all still pertinent advice for me as I continue to actively practice my shooting.

Although I did take about a 2 month break due to some travel, I am back to hitting the range weekly. I have definitely improved since making this post. I am more comfortable shooting at longer distances and can get tighter groupings with fewer fliers.

I'm going to start hitting an outdoor range where I can shoot at great distances and also where I can practice transitioning targets. I do this I dry fire but more difficult to do at the indoor range.

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[Blackstone45]

lol didn't realise this was a bump. Antny seems to enjoy his old threads

[MemphisMechanic]

27 minutes ago, Blackstone45 said:

lol didn't realise this was a bump. Antny seems to enjoy his old threads

 

It’s the downside to the “50 posts before you can use the classifieds section” system.

 

Guys like @Antny dredge up old posts and comment on them to get their post count up. Annoying, but it happens.

[Doublehelix]

1 hour ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

It’s the downside to the “50 posts before you can use the classifieds section” system.

 

Guys like @Antny dredge up old posts and comment on them to get their post count up. Annoying, but it happens.

 

Or maybe he is new to the forum, and is reading down several pages to get the feel of things? I am not saying you are wrong because a lot of folks are running the tables to be able to use the classifieds, but when I first joined (recently), I found myself perusing posts 2-3 pages deep since I had never seen any of them before.

 

I tend not to revive old posts (the "Lazarus Effect") unless I have something really profound to add however. But since this one has been brought back to life, I feel free to babble! 

 

I am in my second year of USPSA, and I spent the off season chasing speed since I was really slow last year, but accurate as heck.

 

This year, I am *MUCH* faster (thank you dry fire), but my accuracy has gone to hell in a handbag. Let's just say I am thinking about changing my middle name to "Mike" after this past weekend's match! 

 

But as has been posted here already, it is a constant battle between speed and accuracy, and both take constant practice. My current focus is to get back on track accuracy-wise, and the combine that with my new-found speed if possible.

 

Steve Anderson preaches to start practice focusing on accuracy and not worried about speed, then move onto speed without worrying about accuracy, and finally, shooting at "match speed" and work on calling all of your shots. This is GREAT advice, and my current plan...