Is this an athletic sport? Or, I like physical challenges.

[Jake Di Vita]

Its the run 25 yds or drag the dummy around the COF things that create an unequal playing field

How does that create an un-equal playing field?

Lowering course design to accommodate the lowest common denominator is defiant towards the purpose of competition; which is of course to divine the best performers through a series of equal tests. What constitutes an equal test? I'd say equality in testing is chiefly in ensuring all competitors negotiate the same course of fire. If some people can't do it - they quite simply aren't the best practical shooter at the match that day. They can either improve upon that if they desire to, or not. If shooter A is losing time on shooter B because he can't run as fast, how is that any different from a shooter being unable to make a 25 yard head shot?

Remember, this is practical shooting. Can you think of something more practical than some physical stress while shooting? Wouldn't that physical stress create a bigger separation in competitors - especially at the M and GM level? Not to mention it gives stage designers a whole new array of options to use.

Yes that makes it harder, and people who have issues with their fitness will have to take than into consideration when preparing to shoot a match. Some people will take that challenge head on and improve their fitness and ability level to where they can compete with the best shooters in their class or division, some people won't. That's fine...everyone can't (and shouldn't) win. But all of a sudden that creates a gateway for shooters to push themselves even further to be better.

The cool thing is, this effects no one in an adverse way. People that shoot for love of the sport will be there regardless. They may or may not attempt to negotiate the obstacles, and would take their licks accordingly. I've seen many elderly shooters choose to take a penalty instead of going through a cooper tunnel. They didn't complain about it. I'd contend that the people who choose not to negotiate the obstacles, likely wouldn't be winning the matches regardless. People that shoot because they love competition will embrace this whole heartedly because it makes winning more difficult - and thus more rewarding.

In regards to the Range Officers, the difficulty of their time running shooters can easily be mitigated by good course design. You don't have to make someone run 100 meters in order to make a stage physically challenging.

[Flexmoney]

We can measure this, if we keep the variables in check.

If dragging a dummy from A to B takes 40% of the stage time... then that is making up a lot of the "test".

I always thought that...if I ever had my own range to run matches on...I'd run two monthly matches. One being more physical than the other.

One of my stage design tenets is still...know your customers. Couple that along with NOT designing to the fringe shooters (GM's or newbies). But, that doesn't meant to dumb the stages down. Keep it challenging. Push them a bit. Bring them along. Just don't beat the crap out of them time after time.

[VegasOPM]

Its the run 25 yds or drag the dummy around the COF things that create an unequal playing field

How does that create an un-equal playing field?

Lowering course design to accommodate the lowest common denominator is defiant towards the purpose of competition; which is of course to divine the best performers through a series of equal tests.

I agree to a point, but there is a threshhold for physical challenges and shooting. I'm a 6'2", 260# ex-powerlifter. Is it fair to have competitors lift a 300# weight onto a 4' platform during the course of fire? For me it is easy- for most others not so much. I agree that physicality is important, but if we try and turn it into as much of a physical challenge as a shooting challenge, we are going to lose interest in all but the most fit.

[murkish]

I am still wondering where all the young, physically fit athletes are when I am setting up at 7am on second Saturdays. Getting their beauty rest I guess.

I think most match directors I know build their matches for the market. The twenty to thirty-something athlete is not the market...here anyway. YMMV

On the local level, you are asking a crew to design and build a course of fire to challenge the 2 or 3 people in the match that are not "the lowest common denominator" and that is just not very likely. I think you need to get at least to the state level before the market gets big enough for the numbers to work. If you want it, then get busy. Otherwise, go run a triathlon.

[VegasOPM]

I am still wondering where all the young, physically fit athletes are when I am setting up at 7am on second Saturdays. Getting their beauty rest I guess.

I think most match directors I know build their matches for the market. The twenty to thirty-something athlete is not the market...here anyway. YMMV

On the local level, you are asking a crew to design and build a course of fire to challenge the 2 or 3 people in the match that are not "the lowest common denominator" and that is just not very likely. I think you need to get at least to the state level before the market gets big enough for the numbers to work. If you want it, then get busy. Otherwise, go run a triathlon.

Amen to all of that- as a club Match Director, I couldn't have said it better.

Edited January 15, 2010 by VegasOPM

[CHA-LEE]

I think that the physical non-shooting things in a COF are far more exaggerated by the shooter observing the stage verses how much it really affects their stage run. The guys that whine about the physical stuff are usually the same guys that waste 10x the amount of stage time doing other things poorly as well. Really, is that second you lost in running from point A to B compared to another athletic shooter really going to be the single bad thing to sink your stage performance??? I think not.

I am not a small citizen. Being 6’ 4” and 275 makes me not a fan of low ports or stages that require Bruce Lee ninja style movement. But I offset those disadvantages by being able to unleash my shooting fury in such a hurried rate that it some times makes people wonder if my gun has gone full auto. The same could be said for being able to shooting over/around obstacles that others can’t. So in the end I think the disadvantages and advantages from one shooter to another from a physical standpoint becomes a wash. In the end you still have to get all of your hits and execute on your stage plan and usually whoever does those things the best ends up on the top of the heap regardless of how fast they can run.

All you need to do is watch TGO or Taran Butler mosey through a stage then finish with a rock star time to fully understand that it isn’t the “Who can haul ass physically” factor that wins matches.

[TWHaz]

Yes it is.

That said, I am in good shape for 53 but still get beat by fat older out of shape shooters.

Go figure

[Flexmoney]

This thread is missing a joke about "athletic supporters".

[Neomet]

This thread is missing a joke about "athletic supporters".

No matter how much Tom did dryfire practice with his weakhand shooting he just wasn't going to reach his

potential until he changed his undies in for an athletic supporter.

Edited January 16, 2010 by Neomet

[Flexmoney]

Support while shooting weak hand? Didn't we just put that on the no-fly list?

[BSeevers]

I think you guys are a little distracted and aren't even looking at the support hand

[gino_aki]

This IS an athletic sport. But it does accommodate most any level of athlete...um, if you can't hold the gun up, well, sorry. If you can't negotiate the obstacles as well as others...well, that's life ain't it? Does anyone think relaxing the difficulty of the physical or shooting test in a COF is going to significantly change the order of finish at a match? Or will it only make a few happier with their hit factors?

Now if obstacles aren't safe to negotiate, that's one thing. If it's hard to do, that's another. It will be easier for some, not easy for others. Equality of testing to me means the equal opportunity to take that test...like the vertical ports mentioned earlier. I'm sure we all want to be tested as equals, i.e practical shooters, rather than be equals as some social systems might dictate.

As for course design, if you're creative enough you can figure out how to rig it so there are alternatives without folks having to take procedurals. At one state match I designed courses for I set up a three foot wall that you could go over in one hop if you wanted, up a hay bale if you needed a step up, or through a gate at one end if you didn't want to do any jumping. There were targets just beyond the wall and over the wall was the fastest way to them...but most folks opted to engage them from back of the wall then run through the gate to the bridge....

As for the really physically challenging (um, well, crazy sh*t) we used to do I also did one that was designed around the pit area of a KD range where the shooter engaged a couple of arrays to the left and right of the start position then had to run up the protection berm to engage the last array over the pit area. The berm was steep enough that we anchored a rope at the top for anyone who might need to pull themselves up. Nobody fell into the pit (thank God) or AD'd while reholstering to pull themselves up, and yes after two days of competition the R.O.s on that stage were beat. But nobody complained that it was unequal or too hard. In fact guys were kinda raving about it throughout the match. Then again this was back before we had to use ten round mags here in Hawai'i and even the Open guns wore iron sights. And we were a lot younger.

The nice thing about practical shooting is that you can be as casual or as serious as you want to be about it. If you're casual about the shooting and essentially just shoot the weekly matches like me you can have fun and stay in C. If you're serious and want that GM, M or A next to your name you'll practice AND train to get it. Making the stages "easier" or "harder" isn't going to change that.

[Lanzo]

Its the run 25 yds or drag the dummy around the COF things that create an unequal playing field

How does that create an un-equal playing field?

Lowering course design to accommodate the lowest common denominator is defiant towards the purpose of competition; which is of course to divine the best performers through a series of equal tests. What constitutes an equal test? I'd say equality in testing is chiefly in ensuring all competitors negotiate the same course of fire. If some people can't do it - they quite simply aren't the best practical shooter at the match that day. They can either improve upon that if they desire to, or not. If shooter A is losing time on shooter B because he can't run as fast, how is that any different from a shooter being unable to make a 25 yard head shot?

Remember, this is practical shooting. Can you think of something more practical than some physical stress while shooting? Wouldn't that physical stress create a bigger separation in competitors - especially at the M and GM level? Not to mention it gives stage designers a whole new array of options to use.

Yes that makes it harder, and people who have issues with their fitness will have to take than into consideration when preparing to shoot a match. Some people will take that challenge head on and improve their fitness and ability level to where they can compete with the best shooters in their class or division, some people won't. That's fine...everyone can't (and shouldn't) win. But all of a sudden that creates a gateway for shooters to push themselves even further to be better.

The cool thing is, this effects no one in an adverse way. People that shoot for love of the sport will be there regardless. They may or may not attempt to negotiate the obstacles, and would take their licks accordingly. I've seen many elderly shooters choose to take a penalty instead of going through a cooper tunnel. They didn't complain about it. I'd contend that the people who choose not to negotiate the obstacles, likely wouldn't be winning the matches regardless. People that shoot because they love competition will embrace this whole heartedly because it makes winning more difficult - and thus more rewarding.

In regards to the Range Officers, the difficulty of their time running shooters can easily be mitigated by good course design. You don't have to make someone run 100 meters in order to make a stage physically challenging.

+100,000.

I thought the "practical" part of practical shooting was applying YOUR ability, knowledge, and skill set to a pre-described challenge? Isn't that what walk through time is for? You figure out how YOU can run the course the best. If you can't get over something what about going around it? Shooting from a different position? Etc...If you get mad enough that a course is too physically demanding than maybe you should spend some time working on your fitness level? Agility and speed are tennants of this "sport" after all.

Adjusting a course because your worried about certain people getting up a set of stairs or negotiating a shaky-bridge or whatever in my opinion is gross and just sad. If it bothers a shooter enough that they have to complain about it than there is a plus side. The beauty is THEY CAN CHANGE IT. Getting more fit will only benefit you, both in practical shooting and in life. You'll feel better, look better, live longer, and have more of a sense of accomplishment/pride. Anyone can just hang out and do nothing...but when you dedicate yourself to something...to self-improvement...you've become something more than just "anyone."

Please realize i'm talking about the complainers here. Like Jake said....most who can't and shoot for the love of shooting don't even care. I have never once tried to purposely hold a person's fitness level against them. I used to be 250lbs @ 5'10", wore 44 or 45 waist pants, couldn't bench 100lbs, and did 12 pushups on my first Army PT test. Now I proudly serve in the 75th Ranger Regiment. I made the choice to be better, to push myself. While I do consider physical fitness as a responsabilty...I do understand that my attitude toward fitness is different, and must be different, because of my job. The only issue I have is by dumbing down anything you're settling for mediocrity.

Don't settle for mediocrity...America already has enough people who are okay with that.

--Lanzo

[cas]

I am not a small citizen. Being 6’ 4” and 275 makes me not a fan of low port...

We are the same size. I've yet to shoot a stage where my size has been an advantage, but many many many where it's a handicap. So "level playing field" doesn't really enter into it. I'm not looking for them to do away with low ports, but how 'bout maybe just ONCE giving me an advantage.

I don't design stages, not any that get used anyway. But I do like to toy with ideas, wrinkles, shooting problems, props... invariably I find my self thinking "So and so couldn't do that." (We have regular shooters who are in their 70's and 80's.) I guess that's the problem with knowing the people you shoot with, you get a conscience.

[NickJ]

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm 62, 160 pounds, and am in the best shape of my adult life. I love stages where I can run like hell and shoot. That said, you can't have a match designed for just that type of shooting. A well balanced match will most likely encompass the strong and the weak points/aspects of all the competitors. I welcome standards, too- I know, that's like saying I like spinach- others excel at, and are more comfortable with, other stuff. Of course it's an athletic sport, if it wasn't we'd all be bullseye shooters.

[Neomet]

Perhaps a fine point here but when we are discussing physical capabilities we are not just talking about limitations of choice (not working out, eating right, etc). Age eats away at our raw speed. I work out constantly and am still in damn good shape...... for 54. My days of running down 22 year olds in the last 10 yards of a 220 are long gone so as long as I compete against younger men and women who are in shape for their age I will be at a physical disadvantage. (steps off soapbox)

That being said this is really a non-issue for me. I chose a run and gun sport. I knew it before I stepped into the box the first time. I do this for fun and to compete against myself to do the best I can. The type of challenges each type of course presents are just that, different challenges. Maybe it is just me but I've always felt best about shooting a good match before I even see what the results are, even if it means finding out I dropped a couple places to the gazelles because there were a couple long field courses.

JMHO

[belus]

I haven't been doing this very long so I'll limit myself to one comment.

At the first or second match I ever attended there was a guy shooting revolver from a wheel chair. I thought this was pretty significant and it raised my esteem of the sport.

[Flyin40]

Build it and they will come..... Did I actually just type that??

Build stages that require alot of physical effort and alot of running........you'll get guys that like that kind of match. You will get some guys that shoot it.

Build stages that are stand and shoot with no real effort or where breaking a sweat is required.......you'll get guys who like that kind of match. You will get some guys to show up.

Personally I like a match that requires a ton of tough stuff on it. I want every stage to require all types of skills to be used. Timing on swingers, moving and shooting, entering and exiting positions. Its just not realistic though.

If I shoot a 5 stage local match 1 stage almost always will be a classifier type stage where you stand and shoot. I like to see 2-3 of the stages that aren't too technically difficult but still require skills. I also like to see 1-2 stages that will test a GM, something like having a setup where you engage an activator and 2 mini poppers or a setup that has an activator and 3 papers then a swinger.

With these variations in stages you'll get all levels of people shooting and enjoying the match.

I know through experience where a local club I used to shoot all the time slowly changed the format. Though it is one heck of a match to test your skills it turned into a pretty much a stand and shoot match to me with some movement. Being almost 2hrs away and that I don't really enjoy the match I just don't shoot it anymore.

[PONY EXPRESS]

Hi,

If "we" don't like the direction our local club is taking "we" must get involved with the planning and set up. Same goes for Majors.

It takes alot to set up a small match, I'm not seeing any comments about the work aspect of this matter. And then who is doing it.

At some of the matches we have it has been the club Pres, VP and two or three others setting it up. Them 45 other shooters show up to shoot.

Then of course the complaints start.

Has any body else had this experience?

John

[Flyin40]

Hi,

If "we" don't like the direction our local club is taking "we" must get involved with the planning and set up. Same goes for Majors.

It takes alot to set up a small match, I'm not seeing any comments about the work aspect of this matter. And then who is doing it.

At some of the matches we have it has been the club Pres, VP and two or three others setting it up. Them 45 other shooters show up to shoot.

Then of course the complaints start.

Has any body else had this experience?

John

I think at our club a bad show for setup at 8am would be 10. We usually have enough guys to through 2 guys on each stage to set it up. I think at 9am we probably have 15-20 helping on a good day. Tear down is getting really good. We have all the props or at least most of them on trailers. When your on the your last stage of the day you tear it down and stack it. The tractor comes through and we throw all the stuff on. Tear down is pretty quick now. Same with setup. Drive the tractor down, unload your walls, braces, targets stands, sticks and poppers.

Flyin

[Flexmoney]

They make me pull the tractor. Now THAT is physical.

[gunracer38]

In my area of local matches it takes many hours to build a stage. Some of them are long and some are short. The range officers try to make the stages for everyone. But I must say you must be good bending ,running and moving quickly. However I have seen people who cant run twenty yards but can shoot

quite fast. I believe that people should be a little athletic for this sport. It does not matter how old you are but you must try. Usually it will work for you. I have been shooting this type of shooting since 1993. Be happy if you can still shoot the stages.

[Flyin40]

They make me pull the tractor. Now THAT is physical.

I'll give you a typical setup day

Flex on the Tractor: "Hey I said 2in further left, I didn't mean 2.1 or 1.9 in I said 2"

setup crew: "How does that look?"

Flex on tractor: "I can't quite tell from here, move that stack of walls so I drive the tractor over there to tell for sure"

Flex on tractor: Sips from coffee cup that he pulled from the drink holder he installed on the tractor after he just ran over and broke the target sticks with the tractor

"Who put the targets sticks in front of my tractor??" "The wall looks good, I'll be back in a bit to check everything out again"

setup crew: "We are so lucky to have someone like Flex to keep up straight"

Another guy from the crew: "He doesn't miss anything, the All seeing and all knowing eye"

Someone out of the peanut gallery: "I have a nickname for him, The One Eyed Bandit" "He sits on the tractor the whole time then steals all the credit"

After the match is over Flex is on the tractor again for tear down

Flex: "I said put your back into, I don't have all day"

Setup crew: "Who the heck drove the target stand spike through rock?" "Just move the darn target stand next time so I don't have break my back to get one stinking

spike out"

Flex from the tractor: "Hey, see that 2x4 on the back of my trailer." "Use it to get some leverage on that spike." "You can put it under the hammer"

Tear down crew: "Hey Flex can you throw it over here?"

Flex: "Caaann'tt quite rrreach it"

Tear down crew guy: mumbles to himself after he walks from the back of the bay to the front where Flex has the tractor and trailer "Looks like the One Eyed Bandit

strikes again"

Flex: Pulls another kind of Beverage out of drink holder he personally installed on the tractor: "Burrrrppppppppppp, not bad guys but I wanted to be at Roosters

by 4pm for some wings and beer so can we hurry it up next time??"

I thought I would go ahead and add that C-ville has a strict no "other beverage" policy and I was only joking about that part. All the rest is true, all of it. Especially the part about the Beer and Wings afterwards.

Well maybe that was the only true part in the whole story.

Flyin

Edited January 19, 2010 by Flyin40

[Paul Santiago]

They make me pull the tractor. Now THAT is physical.

I'll give you a typical setup day

Flex on the Tractor: "Hey I said 2in further left, I didn't mean 2.1 or 1.9 in I said 2"

setup crew: "How does that look?"

Flex on tractor: "I can't quite tell from here, move that stack of walls so I drive the tractor over there to tell for sure"

Flex on tractor: Sips from coffee cup that he pulled from the drink holder he installed on the tractor after he just ran over and broke the target sticks with the tractor

"Who put the targets sticks in front of my tractor??" "The wall looks good, I'll be back in a bit to check everything out again"

setup crew: "We are so lucky to have someone like Flex to keep up straight"

Another guy from the crew: "He doesn't miss anything, the All seeing and all knowing eye"

Someone out of the peanut gallery: "I have a nickname for him, The One Eyed Bandit" "He sits on the tractor the whole time then steals all the credit"

After the match is over Flex is on the tractor again for tear down

Flex: "I said put your back into, I don't have all day"

Setup crew: "Who the heck drove the target stand spike through rock?" "Just move the darn target stand next time so I don't have break my back to get one stinking

spike out"

Flex from the tractor: "Hey, see that 2x4 on the back of my trailer." "Use it to get some leverage on that spike." "You can put it under the hammer"

Tear down crew: "Hey Flex can you throw it over here?"

Flex: "Caaann'tt quite rrreach it"

Tear down crew guy: mumbles to himself after he walks from the back of the bay to the front where Flex has the tractor and trailer "Looks like the One Eyed Bandit

strikes again"

Flex: Pulls another kind of Beverage out of drink holder he personally installed on the tractor: "Burrrrppppppppppp, not bad guys but I wanted to be at Roosters

by 4pm for some wings and beer so can we hurry it up next time??"

I thought I would go ahead and add that C-ville has a strict no "other beverage" policy and I was only joking about that part. All the rest is true, all of it. Especially the part about the Beer and Wings afterwards.

Well maybe that was the only true part in the whole story.

Flyin

[Flexmoney]

That tractor does need a cup holder. And, I think we need a coffee maker down there on the pistol bays. Hmmm...they have a big one up in the club house. (I'll have to point that out.)