Is this an athletic sport? Or, I like physical challenges.

[BSeevers]

I was gonna post this on another topic but I think it needs it own topic and since some hackles will raise, we will try to keep the other thread clean.

I guess my personal goal is that MD's understand my point and not be afraid to design a fun and challenging match.

I drift but I like physical challenges, within reason, and I think its the ONLY thing IPSC does right. This is an athletic sport (we run, climb stairs and other stuff) and dumbing it down for the most out of shape people, makes it not fun. Maybe some of those people would be better suited in a different game. Not trying to run people off and yes its about the shooting as the primary stage design goal, but you need to go past stages where you stand upright go to 2 boxes with open targets at 15 yards. Making a match almost physically impossible or too biased toward any one skill is very wrong but I feel a lot of MD's worry too much about making them too easy because the one whiner speaks up. Stage design is always about balance of course.

By the way I'm well over 40, knees get sore and so forth but I like Action shooting. If there is a day I can't do it so be it. I shoot with a guy thats like 70 and I never hear him complain about physical courses. He just does them a little slower. I hope one day that, I'm that guy. Did I just wish to be old and slow?

IPSC is an obstacle course with shooting. That's one of the biggest reasons that we do it right?

If you wanna talk practical then let's say you are in a gunfight and have to run and shoot round something, way off balance? What call time until its an easier physical challenge? No I think you apply the same skills and attitude you do in competition and improvise, overcome, and adapt to solve the problem or shoot the stage to the best of your ability.

Here is a news alert. We all have some physical limitations that we have to get over if we are 20 or 75. Some are short, tall, slow, stupid,arrogant, and so forth..

[kz45]

I like the physical side also, I wish it would be more physical, it has helped my get in better shape and motivated me, and by know means do I have a advantage, I'm 43, 5'4" and 219lbs, thats fat, but I'm pretty fast for my size and flexible, were supposed to be competing with our selves anyway.

[Sarge]

Bill, I am totally with you on this. That is one of the reasons I plan to make it to C'ville alot more this coming year. Big, long, challenging stages are what I envisioned when I signed on and they have the space, crew and props to make it worth the trip. I know alot of limitations are induced buy range size etc, but you are right, I think things seem a little watered down at times.

If a facility has the space, i.e large bays, I have often wondered about having an option available to the shooter that would not destroy their score. I would love to climb to the top of a platform and engage targets with some "high angle hell" and then get down the other side and go through a tunnel into a big pit of those balls like they have at Chuckie Cheese. OK, that might be a little much, or is it? , but you get the idea. If there is a shooter who don't have the ability to do that then let them walk through a maze like waiting on a ride at Disney World to get to a shooting box then walk alongside the tunnel and step into the ball pit. As another example, if a shooter feels unsafe on a shakey bridge give him an option to shoot from terra firma at the same targets with tougher angles.

Of course this mostly applies to local matches. I expected the stages to be more elaborate at the bigger matches and they were but they were not really physically challenging in your sense of the word.

As a disclaimer, I just turned 50 so my days of wanting to climb jungle gyms will be here sooner than later so I am in no way picking on old guys, or trust me, fat guys for that matter.

Right on, Bill!

[Chris Keen]

Did I just wish to be old and slow?

Bill, I already thought you were ....

Edited December 19, 2009 by Chris Keen

[NoSteel]

I find myself at a point where the Vermont cold, Snow, Rain, etc. gets me to the point where at 50, I'd prefer to not have to deal with it. About that time I see one of our revolver division shooters who is 70++ years old who not only shoots the stages well, he also helps set up, RO, Paste, teardown etc. He does this many times while wearing a shirt that say's "No Crybabies" on the back. Pretty tough to argue with that!!! Come to Vermont in February, we'll be the guys running around the snowmen!!!

[Joe4d]

I dont have issues with physically challenging, that being in better shape or younger and faster will give a shooter an advantage,

What I do have issues with is when body type gives an advantage, I can only remember one stage where my height gave me an advantage but there is a stage in almost every match where being short is an advantage, when was the last time you saw a port say 5 foot 8 inches off the ground ? with a step or someother slower method for short people to shoot ? But lots and lots of ports many people can shoot through with a natural stance but tall people have to bend over. If for every tall person handicapped port there was equal likely hood of a short person handicapped port I would say it wouldnt matter, But MD's dont seem to ever do that.

I feel all ports should be no more than 2 feet off ground or be vertical slits that present the same challenge.

[Seth]

I want a challenge. I want to sweat, run, climb, hang, and DO stuff while shooting. This is not croquet. I want it to be fun, unusual, and downright thought provoking. Shooting around walls and ports is fine and fun, but it isn't necessarily interesting. I do think that the props and silliness has to add to the challenge of shooting, not BE the challenge.

Oh... and bad news, Joe. Seems that I'm your new co-MD at Fredericksburg with Lew. All ports will be PERFECT for 5'8" folks from here on out, just b/c you complained!

[Paul Santiago]

I enjoy the physical part also. Like KZ45 said, it's helped me get motivated to get in shape. I was old, fat and slow when I started. I'm older(52), still fat but 60 lbs lighter and as a result I'm faster than I was. Am I where I want to be? Not yet. Not naming names because I mean no slight towrds them, but yes, there are other shooting sports where you don't have to run, jump, squat, bend, and stretch.

It's motivating to me to see someone fly through a course or leap a conrad-sissy-stick while also hitting alphas.

[Joe4d]

Fredericksburg is one of the few places that routinely uses vertical slits instead of ports to make them height neutral,

[JThompson]

I usually do better on the physical ones... I dunno why... I'm fat and not in great shape, but I seem to have some of my best results on those stages. Maybe it's because I'm thinking how physical it is I don't worry about the shooting and "just shoot." The exception, for me would be going prone in the middle or the beginning of a stage. My knees!!!

JT

Edited December 19, 2009 by JThompson

[herky]

I may be looking at the "old" days thru rose colored glasses, but I think when I started 20+ years ago, the game was more physical. The problem, if that is what it is, is course design and the aging of the competitors. Complaints about the physical requirements of stages will cause designers to "dumb" them down to keep the competitors happy. This is not a knock on designers, they have a tough job and are just trying to keep the customer happy. A good long course of fire is a compromise between shooting and required movement, it should have elements of both. All in all, USPSA is the most fun shooting out there, we should strive to keep it that way.

[BSeevers]

I was making that point. Everybody has a disability. Tall guys gotta stoop at ports but short guys have more challenge with leaning round walls.

Tall guys get a step and half on short ones. I just run faster. See where I going with this? I think it evens out. I want challenges.

[JeffWard]

I feel it should be balanced.

Some stages should have easier shots, and greater physical demands. Others should be more stationary, yet more of a technical challenge. Many of the "old guys" we shoot with are still decently competitive because they shoot alphas. Lotsa alphas...

In every sport in the world, there is a "sweet-spot" between physical ability and experience. Ours is a sport you can excel at into your late 30's, and even 40's. But it'll take a lot of work to be competitive past 50 at any level.

I'm in great shape, at 245lbs and single-digit fat levels, but my size slows me down. I'd be faster at 215-225... But my career (fitness training/education) favors the muscular monetarily... Until I start making $50K+ shooting... I'll stay big!

Jeff

[Chills1994]

pas wrote:

...still fat but 60 lbs lighter...

Congrats, MAN! That is quite the accomplishment.

Jeff Ward wrote:

I'm in great shape, at 245lbs and single-digit fat levels

Wait...WHAT!? How is that even possible? You're like 6 foot 8, right?

If you're like 6 foot 2 or shorter with sub 10% body fat, you and PINMAN need to really get together and try out for that marksmanship/"reality" TV show that was talked about in that one thread.

getting back more on topic... I think safety is or should be of utmost concern.

In that other thread where I was commenting so much about the foot fault thing and how I think the rule book could be better written, I kept picturing a spectrum or gamut where at the one end you have what everyone thinks is the utopia of 100% freestyle stages, and then down at the other end, I pictured having a much thicker rulebook to counteract just about every contigency that could pop up in these 100% freestyle Rubik's cube like stage.

So, in that same vein of thinking, making stages that are mentally challenging and physically challenging does NOT necessarily have to be mutually exclusive (insert Venn diagram here )

In my opinion, USPSA shouldn't get turned into "steeplechase with guns".

FWIW, back when I SO'ed the 2007 IDPA Nat's we had this really long laterally moving...well..mover. IIRC, it was powered by a car battery. From what I can remember, there were fellow competitors who actually watched it and timed it, to make sure it wasn't speeding up or slowing down over the course of the match.

Maybe they were just looking for any excuse to get that stage thrown out. I dunno.

In short...ya just can't please everybody.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Chills1994

[Jake Di Vita]

I'm in great shape, at 245lbs and single-digit fat levels

Uhhh, how did you get your body composition checked? Unless you hit the genetic lottery, something isn't accurate.

Anyone ever think that the DVC principle was about more than only shooting?

Accuracy, Speed, and Power are all physical traits that could and should be challenged in a USPSA match as well.

[Chris Keen]

I like where you're going with that Jake. Speed isn't just about how fast you pull the trigger on that shiny blaster you got there.

[VegasOPM]

I am not a small guy at 6'2" and 265#, and my knees are shot from powerlifting in my youth. That being said, I still design stages that award physical fitness. I like a lot of movement and changing of levels (standing, kneeling, seated, prone). I do try and give less fit competitors an "out"- usually a tighter or longer shot at a target if they choose not to shoot through a low port. I have seen this taken too far on occasion. A match I shot recently was just a series of wind sprints in between boxes and the ports were too low for kneeling and you couldn't go prone and stay in the shooting area. Of course those stages were designed by a hyper fit guy that is also a 90%+ shooter. I won't design stages around the whiners, but I also want the majority of the shooters to be able to safely complete the course of fire.

[Bill Nesbitt]

I drift but I like physical challenges, within reason, and I think its the ONLY thing IPSC does right. This is an athletic sport (we run, climb stairs and other stuff) and dumbing it down for the most out of shape people, makes it not fun.

IPSC is an obstacle course with shooting. That's one of the biggest reasons that we do it right?

Here is a news alert. We all have some physical limitations that we have to get over if we are 20 or 75. Some are short, tall, slow, stupid,arrogant, and so forth..

IPSC is the more athletic shooting sport. But stage designers need to be aware of their competitor's physical abilities. We're in the entertainment business. If the stage is so difficult that only a few can complete it without injury, then we will loose our shooters. I don't want to see the Cooper Wall return.

[Jake Di Vita]

In terms of running...there is no issue of safety or injury. In terms of vaulting something, it's easy enough to take a procedural and go around. People may argue that everyone should be able to compete "equally." The fact is, we compete to find the person who performs best throughout the course of the match. If your physical abilities limit your ability to negotiate the course of fire as intended, well you obviously aren't going to be the best performer at that match. Physical abilities can be improved in the same way as shooting abilities...through practice, determination, and hard consistent work.

Lowering the standard to the lowest common denominator does nothing to further the sport.

[Chills1994]

Jake wrote:

Lowering the standard to the lowest common denominator does nothing to further the sport.

Conversely, raising the bar yay high will turn off potential newbies to USPSA.

By the way...did USPSA ever reach that 20,000 member mark?

[BritinUSA]

I like the physical challenges in shooting, but I think there needs to be a balance. If a match was just all large-scale physical courses then you may be rewarding physical prowess over shooting prowess. I'm not trying to turn this thread into a IPSC vs USPSA think but this is the main reason that I prefer the IPSC ratio of matches, 3 x short, 2 x medium and 1 x large course.

Done properly this mix allows testing of pure shooting (short stages), shooting and moderate movement (medium) and the big physical stuff with the large course.

I prefer vertical slots to the low ports as I have seen too many of those. I have also seen a lot of ports at medium height that shorter competitors have a significant disadvantage on. A tall shooter can squat down but a short shooter can't do anything to make themselves see a low target through a medium height port.

As the 'scenario stage' has become eroded so has the more physical element of the sport, I think we've lost something over the years. I wish I still had the video of the WS in UK in 1993. People who are just coming into the sport now would be amazed at the stuff that was going on back then.

[Chills1994]

A Brian Enos Thread from 2006: Of Monkey Prop Tossing, faffing about and other non-shooting....

^^^that thread right there may or may NOT be applicable to the current discussion

I really don't know what to think of this topic.

At some point, maybe, yes, there needs to be a line drawn. Where the line gets drawn is going to be very subjective from one person to the next.

I hate to use this analogy, but, maybe it is like that fine line between what people consider pornography and what others might consider art.

IIRC, what one judge or justice said on that matter was something like, "I know it when I see it."

Does that mean that the USPSA rulebook has to tack on X amount of pages do define that line?

I surely hope not.

[Chris Keen]

No, you dont have to define the line. And we are not talking about "raising the bar". If the physical challenge is too much for a competitor with bad knees, or a bad back, then he would be wise to take the admin. penalty that we already have in our rule book. It's really simple. In fact, I get a little errked when people talk about how everyone should be able to compete "equally." That's why we have different classes people! A Master class shooter will most likely be able to vault a low wall, or climb an obstacle that a D class shooter may not. But they are not in the same class. Even if they are both shooting Open, they are not competing against each other. Like Jake said, we are trying to find the person who performs best throughout the course of the match ..... in each class. Thats the important part. 2 GM shooters on a physically challenging stage will be looking to see who can climb the stairs the fastest. Other shooters may want to walk up the stairs or perhaps go around the stairs.

I once watched Julie Goloski ask a CRO if she could go around a small wooden bridge at Area 6, because she had recently taken a fall and was trying to play it safe.

This is still a shooting sport, and yes we need to worry about not scaring off potential new shooters, but it doesnt need to be dumbed down to the lowest skill levels ..... that's just gonna make it boring IMO.

When we remove the kneeling & prone positions from all the classifiers in the book because some shooters cant handle that I'm outta here!

[Chris Keen]

I wish I still had the video of the WS in UK in 1993. People who are just coming into the sport now would be amazed at the stuff that was going on back then.

BritinUSA, Can you elaborate on what "was going on back then" so we can understand where this sport came from?

[Chills1994]

Chris Keen wrote:

That's why we have different classes people!

Dude, don't even get me started.

Seriously....

don't get me started.