Both Feet in the Air Fault line Question

[01G8R]

A question arose at our local match tonight. Here is the situation. Shooting box and a plate rack to be engaged from the shooting box. When leaving the box (one foot in the box, one foot in the air) the shooter fired at the last plate and missed. The shooter then pushed off with the foot that was on the ground and fired at the last plate with both feet in the air before either foot had touched down outside the box. In our case the shooter missed the last plate, but raised the question of whether or not a procedural would have applied if the plate had fallen. I searched here and looked through the rules, but couldn't find a conclusive answer. I don't believe a procedural would apply because the rule 10.2.1 specifies faulting as touching the ground or stepping on something outside the fault line. The way I see it you aren't faulting until you touch down outside the box. Would the same apply coming in to a shooting area with both feet off the ground? Or in that case you wouldn't be considered in the shooting area until you touch down inside the area? Hope this makes sense. Thanks.

[Chills1994]

If you read the rule book really closely, there is a "Jackie Chan/Jet Li" exemption. If he were to actually make the hits, while both feet are off the ground, he gets a +5 added to his hit factor.

It's in appendix G1.

[boz1911]

We had a shooter moving between two shooting areas stop, jump in the air and shoot a target. He thought since his feet were off the ground it was ok. After he got tagged with two penalties I think he understood.

[Chills1994]

rule 10.2.2 says this:

A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed with one procedural penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty ( e.g. firing multiple shots contrary to the required position or stance) .

So, there ya have it.

If the shooter didn't shoot from within Box A as described in your written stage briefing, then, presto bingo, a procedural penalty for each shot fired.

So... hmmn... yeah... a little bit of the onus is on the MD or stage designer to write a good stage description.

If you write a good CoF description, then it is kind of a CYA maneuver to cut that kinda stuff out real quick.

[Paul B]

Well I sure can't find any reason for a penalty here (other than maybe on "style" points). See 10.2.1. If he started in the shooting box and has not touched anything outside of it yet he is still in it. Conversly, if he started out of the box and had not yet touched down in the box (with at least one foot - other in the air) he is out of the box. If this is a penalty then I have seen a lot of GM's incur one as they shoot a tight target around a barricade when they are trying for a fast last shot.

[Anon]

I don't fully understand where the shooter's feet were at what times, but it seems to me that there's no such thing as a body part that is "outside the shooting box", if that part isn't touching the ground.

If we were to start extending the definition of "shooting box" to anything higher than ground-level, most barricade shots would be impossible (because a body-part that isn't touching the ground moves "outside the shooting box".

These aren't touchdowns in football. You don't need to have both feet on the ground in order to score. You just can't have a body-part touching the ground outside the box when shooting.

As for shots with both feet off the ground.... then you do have to make some sort of judgement call as to what body-parts were above the shooting box.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Anon

[ima45dv8]

If he fired the shot as described, before either foot touched down outside of the shooting box, no penalty.

In the instance BOZ related, the shooter had already touched down outside of the shooting area and was moving across the "no-fire zone", then made a tremendous leap up into the atmosphere and fired two shots. Two penalties.

Do a search for "Air Munson".

[ebg3]

If both feet are off the ground, you are out of the shooting box and you should get a penalty for shooting outside of the box. How can it be any other way?

[ebg3]

ima45dv8, didn't see your post...what you say makes sense. I guess if a shooter is in a "box", and leaps out while shooting he won't get a penalty until his feet make contact outside the box.

[Paul Santiago]

Do a search for "Air Munson".

Came up empty...

[CocoBolo]

I like the part about he missed and there should be no penalty but I couldn't find a rule on that. A foot fault penalty applies even when the shot fails to hit the target. Now you might be able to negioate multiple foot faults down to one by arguing a lack of competitive advantage.

We probalby need to revise the rule to state that shooters while hovering above the shooting box must keep at least one shoulder and one hip vertically above the inside edge of the shooting box with no part of the shooters body or equipment touching the ground outside the box, else the shooter fails the Airborne test and ground rules apply.

[Graham Smith]

If you don't have a foot on the ground outside the box, it's not a fault, but if you don't have a foot on the ground inside the box, how can it not be a fault?

BTW, this is shooting not ballet. No extra credit for a Jeté, no matter how well it is executed.

[ima45dv8]

Do a search for "Air Munson".

Came up empty...

Sorry. I thought there would be a thread on it here. The only reference I found was this one (I read about it in Front Sight before discovering these forums).

What Kimel was referring to was an instance at the Nationals years ago when Lisa Munson leapt into the air and fired the remaining shots before touching down outside of the shooting area. IIRC, there was some discussion of penalties but it was decided that since she hadn't yet touched the non-shooting area with any body part, she was not yet in the no-fire zone. No penalties.

Someone with a better memory or a fully indexed set of FS magazines might be able to provide additional details.

[ChuckS]

The rule is clear on this:

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching

the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a

Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an

object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or

Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

[Chills1994]

What am I...chopped liver?

If 10.2.1 doesn't cover it, then certainly 10.2.2 does.

edited to add this:

01G8R wrote:

Shooting box and a plate rack to be engaged from the shooting box.

If that is what the written CoF description said to do....from the shooting box, then yeah...he gets a few procedurals.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Chills1994

[burningsquirrels]

I've been known for doing this more than once, lol. BUT, in my case, i was leaving the shooting area,and fired shots as my foot was leaving the shooting area. All shots were fired before my feet touched anything outside the shooting area.

Both times the target was point blank, and just around a corner. Both times it was a target you run to. I figured instead of trying to brake, just keep running and doubletap it when i get there. both times it was scored as within the box.

Think of it this way: in basketball, you can have shots "from the 3-point line". if a player is running full tilt, and jumps before the 3 point line, shoots in mid air, and lands after the 3 point line, and he/she makes the basket, is it a 3 point basket? I believe so.

What do you guys think of that?

[Alan Adamson]

The rule is clear on this:

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching

the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a

Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an

object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or

Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

I believe the intent around the topic of discussion is that if feet were in a shooting area, and in transition to another shooting area, you fire shoots with one or either foot in transition, but prior to contact with the next shooting area, you are still considered to be in the original shooting area and hence no penalty. We can't define the shooting box as a vertical space, well, we could, but it would sure make for lots more procedurals... I suspect that everyone has fired a shot with one foot in, one foot out, either moving from or to, thereby breaking the vertical plane of the box - which is also not a penalty.

Just my .02,

Alan

Edited December 18, 2009 by Alan Adamson

[Chills1994]

burning squirrels wrote:

Think of it this way: in basketball, you can have shots "from the 3-point line". if a player is running full tilt, and jumps before the 3 point line, shoots in mid air, and lands after the 3 point line, and he/she makes the basket, is it a 3 point basket? I believe so.

What do you guys think of that?

I think this is a forum dedicated to talking about USPSA.

Apples and oranges...my friend...apples and oranges...

They have their rulebook.

We have ours.

ETA: with a 62,000 something member number, if you plan on sticking with USPSA and especially if you plan on shooting a major match, it would highly behoove you to make your way to an RO class.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Chills1994

[Paul Santiago]

What am I...chopped liver?

If 10.2.1 doesn't cover it, then certainly 10.2.2 does.

edited to add this:

01G8R wrote:

Shooting box and a plate rack to be engaged from the shooting box.

If that is what the written CoF description said to do....from the shooting box, then yeah...he gets a few procedurals.

'Chopped Liver' has it right there. It's in the CoF description. If he's in the air, he can't be in the box.

[burningsquirrels]

I realize it's apples and oranges, but it was the closest thing I could come up with at the time when it happened.

At the end of the day, exactly as Alan described. I never made contact with anything outside the shooting area, and the last thing I touched was the shooting area. Since it wasn't exactly specified about 'feet in the air' in the rulebook, I was just trying to make an analogy to other sports where the same thing can happen.

[ParaGunner]

I was at a local match and seen a few shooters jump from the free fire zone over a sissy stick-boundry line and fire two shots in mid-air on target(one of them got 2 alphas) before landing in the no fire zone. It was awsome!

[Paul Santiago]

I was at a local match and seen a few shooters jump from the free fire zone over a sissy stick-boundry line and fire two shots in mid-air on target(one of them got 2 alphas) before landing in the no fire zone. It was awsome!

I was going to mention that. I have it on video.

[Alan Adamson]

What am I...chopped liver?

If 10.2.1 doesn't cover it, then certainly 10.2.2 does.

edited to add this:

01G8R wrote:

Shooting box and a plate rack to be engaged from the shooting box.

If that is what the written CoF description said to do....from the shooting box, then yeah...he gets a few procedurals.

'Chopped Liver' has it right there. It's in the CoF description. If he's in the air, he can't be in the box.

Not to beat a dead horse, but...

If you started in the shooting box, you are in it until one foot touches something outside of it. There are no vertical definitions of fault lines (shooting box) until you touch something. So, again, if the shooter was touching the box or the ground in the box, they are there until some portion of them touches some portion of another shooting area. (this also allows for being in both, which should be noted for rules interpretation as well.)

I believe this is the way we manage foot faults in general isn't it?

Alan

Edited December 18, 2009 by Alan Adamson

[Chills1994]

I haven't seen the written course description...so I dunno...

I'm just a speck-u-latin' here, that if the CoF description says, "From within Box A...blah...blah..."

And you aren't within Box A when you're shootin', then that's a procedural.

Now if you want to quibble about the definition of "within"...well...ya might as well wag your finger at the camera and ask what the definition of "is" is...

All you gamers are gonna make me start writing CoF descriptions like, "Start with your toes on the X's, hands naturally at sides, at the start signal, while keeping your toes on the X's, engage T1, T2 and PP1, then move to ....."

ETA: if I gotta spell stuff out that much...well...that's like another shooting sport I know...besides that, it kinda kills the freestyle spirit/intent of USPSA

Edited December 18, 2009 by Chills1994

[mactiger]

I happen to remember that, and there were no penalties then, nor should there be any in this instance. You must be touching the ground or some other object outside the fault line (a box is just four fault lines connected at the corners) in order to incur a penalty. If you are up in the air, you can't be touching anything outside the box/fault line, therefore, no penalty, regardless of whether you hit anything or not. It's firing the shot that incurs the penalty while touching outside the box/fault line.

Mark is correct here.

Troy

Do a search for "Air Munson".

Came up empty...

Sorry. I thought there would be a thread on it here. The only reference I found was this one (I read about it in Front Sight before discovering these forums).

What Kimel was referring to was an instance at the Nationals years ago when Lisa Munson leapt into the air and fired the remaining shots before touching down outside of the shooting area. IIRC, there was some discussion of penalties but it was decided that since she hadn't yet touched the non-shooting area with any body part, she was not yet in the no-fire zone. No penalties.

Someone with a better memory or a fully indexed set of FS magazines might be able to provide additional details.