Uspsa Allows Scopes For Tactical Rifles

[kurtm]

EricW:

Have you ever been to any of the non USPSA matches, which have a "tacticl" class?? The old SOF use to get a hand full of cammo guys out of 225 shooters and that was about it! Jeans and T shirts are the norm, and have been for quite a while, although quite a few mono chromic BDU pants are worn, because they are light and loose for bending and running. Mono chromic = OD, tan blue, and sometimes black. This "dimming down" simplely dosen't happen. Team shirts are commonly seen at SMM3G and other big, non, USPSA matches. I know my sponsers like me to wear thier colors rather than face paint and cammo, not that I would chose to wear that anyway.

Police ARE civilians!! even the biggest general in any armed forces won't get out of a speeding ticket, although he could try to order them not to write it. But another cop might be able to beat it, so maybe they are just a little more "equal" citizens, but citizens none the less!

I don't own " blasters, holster accessories, or bullet throwers". I own firearms and weapons. A rose by any other name is still a rose, and believe it or not most people know this.

Thank goodness Mike finally got this class going. I think the next Nationals will double in size because of it. It is what the customers wanted!! GOOD JOB MIKE!!!! KURT

[EricW]

Kurt,

Yes I have. I and many others like the shooting minus the "combat" stuff. As soon as something turns paramilitary, for me it changes from being fun to not fun. It's just a personal preference. Clearly, 3-gun is not for me.

Fine, Police are civillians. You win. I'll ignore the differentiation between LEO's and non-LEO's in the USPSA rulebook.

FWIW, I'm deleting all my previous posts. I just remembered why I like shooting sporting and 5-stand.

My apologies to all for ever stirring this pot to begin with. Tactical it is.

[rhino]

Please don't delete them!

You raised some valid points ... we just didn't agree.

I think what you said is important to the conversation.

[EricW]

Rhino,

My comments are totally worthless if all they do is incite flame wars on the board. I should have known better.

Once again, my humble apologies to all

E

[rhino]

Dude! It's not a flame war ... we were colleagues having a useful discussion with differing points of view!

You have to know that a lot of people agree with you 100%, but don't like to post messages.

If you leave 'em, I'll promise not to wear a ghillie suit during my next 3-gun match!

[chp5]

I actually do agree with EricW in concept. However, it doesn't bother me as much as EricW.

The term "tactical" has been so diluted through over-use, I propose a new definition:

* having to do with black woven material, or

* any item that would be used, worn, purchased or admired by a Mall Ninja.

I'd still like to hear more ideas on optic/scopes for use in this new division . . .

[George]

I'm thinking this years 3gun nats will be a sold out affair because of this new division and the 250 shooter limit I noticed on the application. Best to get registered early because this suckers gonna be standing room only.

I'll bet the Tactical entries outnumber Open & Limited combined.

Regards,

[Helmut]

if you want to really get tactical.......we should all shoot naked with camo paint on........(only after a few beers)....haha

but on a serious note.........i do not belong to uspsa/ipsc/idpa or any other acronym you can think of.........i just shoot 3gun matches where i can......i do notice that alot more uspsa 3gun matches i shoot, i see the tactical (cargo) pants thing going on.....if some people are worries about dress codes.

I wear tan bdu's to shoot in......the pockets help lug ammo/mags/etc around walking from stage to stage......but i think the web gear with canteens/knives/compass's, etc is a little overboard.......but on the competition side of that coin.......that person hauling all that crap around will not be able to move around as fast, due to the weight.....hince slower time......so whomever what to wear that stuff......more power to ya.....

just a observation.....

Who cares what they want to call a limited optic class (tactical)......i guess the name came from the other 3gun matches (SOF/IMG/WC3GUN/SMM3G/etc....). This other matches have been using this "Tactical optic" class name for some time......but we all use rifles/shotguns that the liberal public deems "EVIL". So we should have a liberal "EVIL" name to go with it......COOL!

It is all about love people!

Merry Christmas

[GordonB]

They need to either give the new division a different name other than "tactical" or give up the idea that our game is just a sport and let all the "tactically" minded people in. If we call it "tactical" we should allow camo attire to be worn and get rid of the ban on tie-down holsters for us civies.

Frankly I don't care if it goes either way. But it bugs me that USPSA will have a "tactical" class and it won't let it's shooters play and wear "tactical" clothes and holsters.

I'm starting a new thread on a more suitable name for the this division....

[C Sims]

I'm new to the USPSA sport but I just don't understand what the big deal is about a name. They could call it basket weaving division and I would still look forward to shooting many future matches. Maybe I missed something but what is the big deal about what clothes we wear while we are shooting. Who cares what the media perceives anyway. They are going to twist and write or say whatever they want to even if we are wearing black bdu's.

Ok, enough words.....see ya.

[rhino]

I'd still like to hear more ideas on optic/scopes for use in this new division . . .

I'll probably be using exactly what I've used for 3-gun in the past, although I've always had to shoot in Open Division.

I have a Leupold Vari-X II 1-4x20mm. It's the bee's knees in terms of versatility.

Being a Leupold, it's also plenty rugged with excellent optics.

I might also shoot a red dot if I know the courses of fire will all be under 100 yards.

[Nate]

"I'd still like to hear more ideas on optic/scopes for use in this new division" . . . I am a very average rifle and at 41 the .030 front sight tends to vanish at times on the far targets. I guess I will use the smallest dot possible (2 minutes?) or a small diamond if I can hit the steel with it. The 200 yard+ stages are few with low point values and what I gain with a variable will be lost with how it slows down the 75 yard and in shooting. A 20 target, 40 round, 200 point stage is going to be close just so it can be scored, and a dot is much faster for me. I guess we all take our points where we can. Some of the guys in open seem to be able to use the variable up close but they have much better rifle skills than I do.

[rhino]

I tend to leave my scope on 1X and rarely use it at more than 2X. The problem for me is that more magnification makes my natural wobble more obvious to me, so it actually slows me down.

So why not just shoot a dot or irons, some might ask? Good question! One thing is that the fine crosshairs make obscure less of the target than a standard front post or a dot bigger than 1MOA.

Maybe I'll just get an EOTech and be done with it. Or maybe two.

[Liota]

if you want to really get tactical.......we should all shoot naked with camo paint on...

Holy Cow, Man! Don't give Rhino any ideas!!!

L

[George]

The choices available nowadays make several combinations look very good.

If a single sighting system is employed, a variable that goes from 1x to 3-5x seems to be the winner here. I have tried a CQT, and it is very fast up close (I was able to shoot both eyes open on 1x), and it also whacks long distance steel well at it's limit of 3x. It was also fairly easy to change magnification on the fly. The other short variables (that Kelly already mentioned earlier) that go from 1x to beyond 3x will give you an edge when the distance gets way out there (300 plus) and you find you want a little more magnification to hold the target cleanly.

If you get into one of the ACOG's that is fixed at 3.5 to 4x or even a 3sumthin on up variable, the JP Rifles handguard mounted iron sight system will get you back up to speed on the close-medium fast stuff. This is a very trick way to have dual sighting systems on a rifle in Limited/Tactical.

I found out real fast a couple years back that a single optic with a 3.5x lower end magnification can be a very large handicap on the hoser stuff, and a huge advantage on the long stuff at the very same time.

Of course, the best choice is always gonna' be the one you practice with the most :-)

Regards,

[kurtm]

EricW:

Can you not picture in your minds eye old Wes Clark triing to order a bored traffic cop not to write? I didn't realize my hummor got so dry! The "rose by anyother name" comment was meant to point out that the people who don't like our sport is because its guns, and they know guns when they see them. I wasn't triing to flame you or anyone else. I haven't noticed a push tward "paramilitary" in any of the 3-gun matches I have shot, but then again Im usually just enjoying the sun , shooting, and friends I don't get to see that often. 3-gun may not be for you, but 5 stand and S.C. are also some of my favorites. I try to shoot all disipines, and I like them all. If we as shooters get divided on something as simple as a word, we do a disservice to all disiplines, and shooting in general! KURT

[EricW]

Kurt,

It might be a local thing. Where I used to live, the "Tactical" crowd got just a little too serious for me. The IPSC crowd was a lot more fun to be around. I just got tired of having/hearing the same old "tactical" gripes and groans over and over again. It really seemed to me, like the "T" word is what drug some of the weirdos out of the woodwork.

That said, you and the rest of the 3 gunners here seem to be very intelligent and enlightened and if I got to be around you guys all day I wouldn't care if you called it the "Tactical Nuke" division.

I do think the "T" word for a new division is somewhat inconsistent in light of the fact the "Streetgun Nationals" got whacked for being un-PC.

[glockster96]

It might be a local thing.  Where I used to live, the "Tactical" crowd got just a little too serious for me.  The IPSC crowd was a lot more fun to be around.  I just got tired of having/hearing the same old "tactical" gripes and groans over and over again.  It really seemed to me, like the "T" word is what drug some of the weirdos out of the woodwork.

Amen. That is why I don't shoot IDPA anymore (around here).

However, I do think it will be what we make of it. Our 3 gun club has been established long enough that this won't make a difference. (except me and several other members won't be in open because of our rifles anymore.) :-) We've had the influx of weirdos, tactical tommies, etc. in the past, and they seem to weed themselves out if not allowed to take root.

[kimel]

I find it rather humorous that here we are trying rather desparately to separate ourselves from the "Gunstore Commando" set and at the same time we are rampant consumers of goods which are marketted to us as "tactical".

Anyone that takes a look at some of the brightly anodized ARs running around (ala JP and the CTR series) and calls them "Tactical" must be disturbed between the ears. You betcha...Joe 3-Gun with his Sky Blue or Candy Apple Red or Lime Green AR is tactical. Sureee.........

Every scope maker seems to have a "Tactical" line which just means, in many cases, that they are matte black and don't have bright shiny lettering. Oh...and there is an extra 30% on the price tag.

FWIW...I am thrilled that the BoD has created this division. My 42 year old eyes can still do irons out aways but that is going away, fast.

But time to do some shopping for some optics. That is for sure.

[glockster96]

Every scope maker seems to have a "Tactical" line which just means, in many cases, that they are matte black and don't have bright shiny lettering. Oh...and there is an extra 30% on the price tag.

No, no, no.....It's not just scope makers, its all manufacturers....And they SPRAY PAINT their product black and charge an extra 75%.

[George]

Funny thing here is that the "T" thing really does have Teeriffic marketing value.

Check out JP Rifles home page http://www.jprifles.com/ This is a good example of a "Tactical" product line that is worth every dime spent on it. And how about the Tubb 2000 Tactical

My feeling is that the word Tactical has a little mystique attached to it that cannot be denied deep inside the J.Q. Public mind, no matter what the prevailing social attitudes seem to indicate.

Regards,

[kellyn]

I don't particularly have anything against the title "Tactical." It's a word that has certainly been beaten beyond all recognition in public usage but that may actually help USPSA's new class.

This class will come the closest in equipment terms to what's being employed out there in the real world, where optical sights have clearly replaced irons in the U.S. military.

I agree with the comments about our sport being un PC by its very nature and a name change to "Modified" or "Limited Optic" is not really going to change any anti-gunners minds. The title "Tactical" may however increase participation. Certainly the title has not hurt participation in the other 3 gun matches where tactical scope is the biggest class. It's a title that may attract those uncommitted 3 gunners out there. Those folks who bought an AR w/ a scope, have a shotgun and pistol and just want to shoot. Of course, it may attract the "tacticabillies" as Matt Burkett calls them ( I just love that title by the way) but those types seem to disappear after facing the heat of competition.

Perhaps "Practical" would have been better though.

[PacMan]

"tacticabillies" as Matt Burkett calls them

That's very funny! Now there is a new word for my limited dictionary.

On the use of the word "tactical" as a prefix, a guy called himself Tactical Bob showed up at the RM3G match in full desert 6 color camos, suspender, and spring loaded shoes. A little strange at first look, but he turned out to be one of the nicest and funniest competitors, just there to have a good time.

[rhino]

Clearly I need to call myself "Tactical Rhino" and refer to myself in the third person.

That's the way Tactical Rhino would do it, anyway.

[benelli2]

The new whatever its called division is the best thing to happen to USPSA and shootin in the last ten years, and to think I just had eye surgery to try to find that front sight thingy again, now I can use my Kalhes all the time. I am certain it will be the largest division at every USPSA 3 gun match to come. Hurry up spring time!