bayouman Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Has anyone gone to Palm scoring and decided to go back to paper? What are to pros and cons. Also, what kind of backup do you use for the Palm at local versus bigger matches? Most club matches I shoot don't use the Palm. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 I the bright Colorado sunshine, some screens are really[i/] hard to see. That's my one and only issue with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 our club Memphis Sport Shooing Association and the club in dickson, tn (NTPS) have been using palm for several years now. i think there is no way we'd go back to paper. the tennessee section was scored this year on the palms. the memphis charity challenge will use them this weekend. there is a small learning curve with people new to the system, but they catch on quickly. the devlopement of the interface with EZwinscore was a big help too. palms make sure the score is correct. all the totals add up and the time is always recorded. paper is hit or miss. lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) We've been using Palms at our monthly Cajun Action Shooters match in Thibodaux this year and used them to score the recent Gator Classic. Once you get over the small learning curve (and it is small despite the occasional kicking and screaming from the old guard), there is no reason to score any other way. We used back up paper slips at the Gator, just in case. I think they only were needed once from what I overheard. No manual addition, what you see on the summary screen is what you get, right up to the match postings. Scores are compiled and finalized before the match is torn down. So what's not to like? Some say it's a little slower than paper: perhaps, but not once you get up to speed. Add in the efficiency of compiling scores and lack of arithmetic or other errors creeping in, and it's hard to make a case against them. And if it's raining, put the Palm in a baggy—no more illegible written score sheets. The only problem is that when people are learning to input data, it's best to review your scores with the scoring RO on the summary screen before they're saved, just to catch egregious data entry errors. We used Palm scoring at Area 4 for over 250 competitors, with IIRC, only three minor problems, all easy to fix. At that match, Lee Neel had infrared portable printers at each stage so two printouts could be saved, a backup for the match and a copy for the competitor. Curtis Edited: 'cause I hate typos! Edited October 29, 2009 by BayouSlide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 We've been using Palm scoring at all but a couple of clubs here in Eastern CO for a while now. We have 2 or 3 clubs that haven't converted to them, but the word is they are all going to convert over to Palm scoring too. IMO, the advantages of Palm scoring greatly outweigh paper. Some of the issues we've had with Palm scoring have been: The learning curve for shooters to learn how they work especially when it comes to fixing mistakes; you can't switch back and forth from one stage to another for the same shooter so if you have two stages on one berm and the shooter shoots both stages one after the other you need to dedicate a palm to one of the two stages; the sun glare on the screen on some models can make it really hard to see the data; big matches where the palm is used all day can kill the battery if you are not careful; par time scoring on them is really tough; some of the older Palms are slow and slow down scoring. One of my clubs board members found some Palm Ti models for sale and we bought 4 of them. They just rock. They are instantly fast and we have no problems with sun glare with them. They score just as fast a writing. There is zero lost time with these compared to writing the scores on paper. Even with the older models, the time and energy saves to complete the scoring is well worth it. We set the Palms to shut off after one minute of no use, and this saves the battery drain. They will last all day long set like this. The Palm prep time before the match is about equal to printing out score cards for the match and is a push. The accuracy of the scores with the Palm is better. A lot less score errors and aside from the rare screw up, you don't have the guessing game going on like with written scores. Match scoring is literally download time and a quick look over for missing data. Match is scored in 10 to 15 minutes. Your biggest hurdle is getting people to accept the change and learn the equipment. Some people will fight it tooth and nail, and others will just not want to spend a match learning how to use it. I know the York, PA USPSA club had a practice match with a bunch of their regular shooters and every one learned how to use the Palms. It was a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 We have used them at North Mountain here in VA all year and they have been great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Lee Neel will probably chime in here. His set up for Area 4 included bigger external battery packs on the Palms for longer life. And SA Friday is right, the newer units can easily keep up with you. If you're stuck with an older Palm, sometimes you feel like you're waiting a little for input. And the older ones take a little time to resort names, etc., in a big match when you need to do something like add a shoot through to a squad when you have to sort through the entire list of competitors. Palm scoring is the future and I'm happy to be on that train...bet most stat people at matches would echo that sentiment in a heartbeat. Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpenShooterGirl Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 We've been using Palms at our monthly Cajun Action Shooters match in Thibodaux this year and used them to score the recent Gator Classic. Gator was my first big match and 3rd match total that used Palms for scoring (SEPSA in Fernandina Beach, FL uses Palm at their monthly matches). I think the RO's and staff at Gator Classic did a fantastic job with the technology and it was really cool to see everything on screen, including Hit Factor, immediately after you were done shooting. I hadn't thought about the advantage of using them in wet conditions as opposed to dealing with soggy paper scoresheets, but that alone gives Palm the upper hand in my book! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) For those not familiar with it, here's a video on how to score with the Palm. Probably posted elsewhere on the forum, but thought I'd embed the link, considering the discussion. Curtis Edited October 29, 2009 by BayouSlide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) I the bright Colorado sunshine, some screens are really[i/] hard to see. That's my one and only issue with them. I have found that the best procedure for using the Palm in bright sunshine like we have in Albuquerque is to station myself somewhere near the center of the stage with the Palm turned so the sun is not shining directly on it and let the RO call the time and hits out. I am not trying to follow the RO and have to juggle the Palm out of the sun from target to target. Makes it easier to tap in the hits with the stylus while standing still. Adios, Pat Edited October 30, 2009 by whatmeworry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) These are the models we use and they are virtually instant, no sun glare problem either. http://blog.pricegrabber.com/blogbytes/fil...gsten-c-pda.jpg Edited October 29, 2009 by SA Friday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 I shoot at a club in Michigan that uses them and they are slow when inputing. Constantly waiting on the device is tiresome. Now that is maybe due to the model of the palm, I don't know. I do know that they don't look like the one linked above. They are fast for the scoring/downloading at the end of the match. I just think the ones I have used are slow during the match and I am not a fan. Where do you get these palms that are fast for inputing and glare free? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 I the bright Colorado sunshine, some screens are really[i/] hard to see. That's my one and only issue with them. I have found that the best procedure for using the Palm in bright susshine like we have in Albuquerque is to station myself somewhere near the center of the stage with the Palm turned so the sun is not shining directly on it and let the RO call the time and hits out. I am not trying to follow the RO and have to juggle the Palm out of the sun from target to target. Makes it easier to tap in the hits with the stylus while standing still. Adios, Pat This sounds like a really good idea. I'm going to try it at the next match here. Hard to conceive of going back to paper, but does anybody know what the future for Palms are? The company isn't making any more, I don't think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 We use the newer StageScore system. We are approaching a one year anniversary. Our procedure is to register our shooters in advance of the match. We use a company called FormSpring, cost is $90 a year. We create our own form, the shooters fill it out and submit it, they receive an email telling them they are registerd and including any special information about the match. We download the information into excel and sort it for squadding. Palms are loaded with squads and 4 walk-ons plus if we are a squad short of full, a full squad of walk-ons. We have not capped our matches, but we do limit squad requests to 8 shooters. All data entry is completed the night before the match. Stages are verified to have the same target count as the palms. I have very few complaints, I would like the steel count to open as a zero as opposed to showing all hits. I would like the Palms to output an SD card. Go back to paper??? Not if I have anything to say. Even our skeptics are slowly coming around. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lneel Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 I have found that usually the issues with sun glare are caused by some sort of screen protectors. I have tried cheap ones and expensive ones and they seem to be about the same. I would not have the screen protectors on if some of the guys didn't peck at my screens like a chicken (yes, Michael K. I am talking about you ). Anyway, Palm Tungsten T2 or E's are what I consider minimum hardware for the system to be "fast". In reality with those models the only slow part is the competitor list if you have 250+ shooters like A4 did. Like has already be said, there is no way we would go back to a paper based system. I no longer rush through the match so I can run in and score it for everyone. I just get to shoot with everyone else, collect all the Palms and beam them all to a master. I then upload the info to my laptop, imprt into EZWinscore, calculate and then print the results. I usually upload scores to USPSA when we stop for lunch on the way home from the range. I love it! Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayouman Posted October 30, 2009 Author Share Posted October 30, 2009 Thanks for all the input. I used one for the first time as an RO at the Gator Classic. There is only one club in our area using them - the others resist it like the plague. My first experience was very positive. Some folks thought we should not use them at a major match, but that is where they shine and here is why. Assume you have 200 shooters shooting 12 stages. That is equivalent to 2,400 score sheets. Now consider a very conservative 10 entries per score sheet. That takes you to 24,000 entries. If this is done by hand the ROs will have to make 24,000 individual entries and the stat people would have to input those same 24,000 entries - by hand - into EZWin. The weak point where the errors are likely to occur in any database system is human input - so with a paper system you would have 48,000 human inputs for a major match - and most likely a lot more. With the Palm system it is more likely that the correct scores are entered into the Palm since the assistant RO only need to tap the appropriate box. After the all shooters in a squad shoot the Palm person only needs to make sure there is a $ sign before all shooter's name. I too am concerned about where you go from Palm since they may not be producing more of them in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lneel Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 I too am concerned about where you go from Palm since they may not be producing more of them in the near future. I am a bit of a nut but this is why I have ~50 of them.....plenty to last for years and then there will be something different. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 I am a bit of a nut but this is why I have ~50 of them.....plenty to last for years and then there will be something different.Lee Lee, you're a nut but definitely a one. I can't begin to tell you guys how great it was to work with him and his stupendous set up at Area 4. It was a cool as it gets Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimWheeler Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 (edited) We have used them at North Mountain here in VA all year and they have been great They have cut down on the amount of time it takes to get the results completed and posted.... Same night ! Our first time using them we tried the "walk up" feature and it was hard to manage, so we score the ones that are walk ups on paper then add them to the match. This saved lots of time and was very easy to do (better then the walk up feature). Since we have online registration, and run 4 squads (2 AM & 2 PM), I can enter all the shooters Friday or Sat before the match, and then place them into squad 5 for AM and squad 6 for PM. then the morning of the match, I can sort by squad 5, and squad the Am shooters to either squad 1 or 2 depending on sign up and in the PM do the same thing with squad 6. Edited October 30, 2009 by JimWheeler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 They have cut down on the amount of time it takes to get the results completed and posted.... Same night ! A7 scores were posted less than 4 minutes after the last shot was fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lneel Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 They have cut down on the amount of time it takes to get the results completed and posted.... Same night ! A7 scores were posted less than 4 minutes after the last shot was fired. Ah, Area 4 was slow then....it was 10 minutes until the final results were posted to the online USPSA results server at the match and 20 minutes before we had them printed and posted on the wall......dang just too slow Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 It sounds like Palm scoring is the way to go. Does anyone know why they are still using paper at Nationals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 They have cut down on the amount of time it takes to get the results completed and posted.... Same night ! A7 scores were posted less than 4 minutes after the last shot was fired. Ah, Area 4 was slow then....it was 10 minutes until the final results were posted to the online USPSA results server at the match and 20 minutes before we had them printed and posted on the wall......dang just too slow Lee Excuse me but I thought there was an hour where competitors could protest the provisional results before they became final; 9.8.3, so what where posted were provisional results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 How do handle the situation with Palms were a competitor protests the scoring of a target and a range master is not readily available? Can a partially scored shooter be bypassed and go on to another shooter and back to a previous shooter and how are signatures handled? How are corrections initialed? These are all questions that need to be answered before approaching the club president to expend money that would take years before it could be recovered in time saved. Stages are torned down as soon as all score sheets are received at stats and results are posted within the prescribed hour and trophys presented to all but the shoot and scoot shooters. What can be faster than that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lneel Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 They have cut down on the amount of time it takes to get the results completed and posted.... Same night ! A7 scores were posted less than 4 minutes after the last shot was fired. Ah, Area 4 was slow then....it was 10 minutes until the final results were posted to the online USPSA results server at the match and 20 minutes before we had them printed and posted on the wall......dang just too slow Lee Excuse me but I thought there was an hour where competitors could protest the provisional results before they became final; 9.8.3, so what where posted were provisional results. Well, they were final because we had no protests/changes I mean....there is and was an hour wait. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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