Charles Bond Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Maybe make a metal plate with an inner "A" zone and and outer "C" zone. Hit the A zone and both plates fall, hit the C zone and just the C falls. Or maybe calibrate the C zone plate only to fall to major PF. Not to pick on you but for just a little more money we could have the olympic targets that show your hits on a remote screen electronically which means no pasting and no resets until the electronics crash and burn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Ken, Open IS NOT well attended everywhere. At RM3G there usualy are the same amoutn of open shooters as limited shooters, and at SMM3G about the same to 10 more than LTD, Same with the FN match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken hebert Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 How about "more well attended than limited"? Point is, I'd like to see it come back to its heyday, and am willing to put some effort into it. The more active I become in 3gun, the more I want to achieve good results in all categories. I currently only run in tac as that is the equipment I have, but I've invested in an open shotty now and can reconfigure a rifle and have an open pistol. Building a limted upper is my next project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Kert & Ken, RM3G had about 30 Open shooters in the last 2 years. TI, HI, HO had about 40 shooters COMBINED. The numbers are about the same for SMM3G... jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 JJ, have you ever stayed up late wondering why???? YOUR iron classes are so less utilitized, or where those shooters went?? Trapr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted October 28, 2009 Author Share Posted October 28, 2009 I shot the Area 6 MG match early this month. All of the rifle stages but one were hoser stages, with hardly any hard cover or no-shoots, no techincal shots required. The "LONG RANGE" stage was a mixture of auto poppers between 50 and 100, and flashers at 150, 175, and 200, with a texas star thrown in for good measure at about 50 yards. Oh yeah, and the 200 flashers could be engage from reverse kneeling with the barricade supporting the front of the rifle. Not anything any of us would consider difficult from a rifle shooters perspective. But turn-out for iron sight divisions was still dismal: TO had 60 shooters, open had 18, Ltd had 8 and HM had 7 (including yours truely). So it's not common to only the challenging matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M ammo Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 To get more shooter shooting Limited/ Irons you have to get some Eye DR to give FREE [b] Lasik eye surgery[/b] That would be a nice prize table addition! Jim M ammo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 While I agree that a irons only match will insure that the shooters attending will all shoot irons, look at it from the perspective of the match director or organizer. If you allow scopes you know you will fill and do so quickly. If you have irons only, maybe you will fill and maybe not and even if you fill it will be more slowly. It is going to take a very dedicated irons shooter to ramrod an irons only match and be prepared to front the funds to pull it off.But a larger question is why should any one division be promoted over another? What is the inherient value from the sport perspective of pushing one division over another? Please note that I am well aware of the practical perspective but am rather talking about the sport or retail perspective. If you stock a grocery store with apples and oranges and grapes and at the end of a week you have sold out of the apples and oranges but only sold 2 bunches of grapes and the rest of them have now rotted, how many pounds of grapes are you going to stock upon calling in the next order? As far as supporting one division over the other with regard to the "sport" goes, it seems from other posts the U.S. is the only place that irons are dying. From the standpoint of being a part of a larger international organization where these divisions are recognized and have healthy participation a little effort to garner more participation wouldn't be too far out of line. Also, any retailer worth his salt would have discounted and moved the grapes before they rotted, and would restock grapes so he could keep the people who bought 2 pounds coming back for other stuff. A carbine match with irons only would be at its worst, a welcome distraction, I also think it would be well recieved at least locally. Someone asked for brainstorming... Similar to the discounted grapes (above)... If a (USPSA Multi-Gun) Match Director wants to attract more shooters to Limited division, would he/she have the power to offer a reduced match fee (incentive) for entries into Limited? There is normally a reduced match fee (incentive) for Juniors... Would that piss off competitors who enter Tactical or Open divisions (and pay full match fee)? Would that sway some (how many?) competitors to enter Limited? (Not simply the reduced match fee, but the reduced match fee as an indicator that the match desired, and was meeting the needs [including target size/distance, target type/target color/target placement/target backer, etc.] of Limited competitors, and as such the Limited turnout and prize table would likely be significantly better than the "norm".) There may be too many problems with the idea (I have reservations about the idea myself!), but I thought I'd toss it into the mix. I like grapes. I don't eat them all the time, but I would hate for them to become unavailable. Respectfully, ac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
springy Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 How else does one explain the 113 posts here on this issue vs the TWO entries in the USPSA Muligun Nationals? My computer is only 10 feet away, and the nationals were 2,200 MILES AWAY, on the other side of the continent!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 How else does one explain the 113 posts here on this issue vs the TWO entries in the USPSA Muligun Nationals? My computer is only 10 feet away, and the nationals were 2,200 MILES AWAY, on the other side of the continent!!! But if we had held the match in Orlando wouldn't the 2 limited shooters who entered have been able to say the same thing? I do not have a side here but USPSA has to do better with not only limited entries but total match entries as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRider Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 How else does one explain the 113 posts here on this issue vs the TWO entries in the USPSA Muligun Nationals? My computer is only 10 feet away, and the nationals were 2,200 MILES AWAY, on the other side of the continent!!! But if we had held the match in Orlando wouldn't the 2 limited shooters who entered have been able to say the same thing? I do not have a side here but USPSA has to do better with not only limited entries but total match entries as well. Why is it that "Outlaw" matches fill up and have waiting lists and there were only 135 shooters at the USPSA nationals. Area 6 had 93 competitors and a local/regional "outlaw" rifle match this summer drew 200 competitors, 34 of which shot iron sights. Some of the same people who work the "outlaw matches are also involved in the USPSA matches. What is so different about USPSA that they don't draw as many competitors (Limited or otherwise). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spd522 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 How else does one explain the 113 posts here on this issue vs the TWO entries in the USPSA Muligun Nationals? My computer is only 10 feet away, and the nationals were 2,200 MILES AWAY, on the other side of the continent!!! But if we had held the match in Orlando wouldn't the 2 limited shooters who entered have been able to say the same thing? I do not have a side here but USPSA has to do better with not only limited entries but total match entries as well. Why is it that "Outlaw" matches fill up and have waiting lists and there were only 135 shooters at the USPSA nationals. Area 6 had 93 competitors and a local/regional "outlaw" rifle match this summer drew 200 competitors, 34 of which shot iron sights. Some of the same people who work the "outlaw matches are also involved in the USPSA matches. What is so different about USPSA that they don't draw as many competitors (Limited or otherwise). My guess is the slight differences in rules and equipment per division, along with more freedom to use different targets in the Outlaw matches. USPSA also use your pistol classifications while the other matches are usually heads-up. I enjoy being able to use a 9mm pistol where I would have to use one of major PF in USPSA. Also, HM requires a pump shotgun in USPSA while some others just specify 12 ga. There are guys on here much more knowledgeble than I am about the differences, but those are a couple I observed. I will shoot either but prefer the non-USPSA. They just seem to be more freestyle and fun. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 9MM Pistol ?? Pump shotgun ?? I have to call this one as it is ! Venue/atmosphere Staff 3gun knowledge and the big ones PRIZE TABLE SCORING SYSTEM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken hebert Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 I have to call this one as it is !Venue/atmosphere Staff 3gun knowledge and the big ones PRIZE TABLE SCORING SYSTEM +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 I just looked at the scores for yesterday's Tac rifle match in Birmingham and a quarter of the participants shot irons, that is not counting heavy. 15 out of 55 in Tac-iron, another 6 in heavy iron. So, 21 out of 55 total shooting iron. This could just be a local/regional thing, or it could be due to the participation of IDPA shooters, maybe something else. Either way, there really doesn't seem to be any shortage of iron shooters in local trophy matches, at least around here. This match format has been well recieved to say the least, so it may be that a carbine only format would be more successful than a irons only match in gaining new blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 9MM Pistol ?? Pump shotgun ??I have to call this one as it is ! Venue/atmosphere Staff 3gun knowledge and the big ones PRIZE TABLE SCORING SYSTEM It would be helpful if you could address how USPSA is lacking in the factors you cite and what you believe would ba a specific improvement which would attract more shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 It would be helpful if you could address how USPSA is lacking in the factors you cite and what you believe would ba a specific improvement which would attract more shooters. All I can cite is my own personal expirience or more specifically judgement. The question addressed was why do the outlaws fill up with a waiting list ? I think the one major item that is overlooked is "reputation". On a limited amount of shooting funds each year I have to make choices. A major 3gun match with support and ammo for 3 guns, hotel, food, and the every growing match fees, can reach up to $2000.00. When I sit down and have to pick one match over another, the outlaw will always win over USPSA. Reputation is a huge part of my decision. USPSA has a reputation also. Fair or not, I have to make a decision based on the reputation given to the match by respected patrons of the match in recent years. I know what I'm getting at established outlaw matches and new one's usually get good praise as well. Aside from the scoring system, "my personal choice" is to not shoot another pistol match with my rifle, I shoot a lot of USPSA pistol already and now I want shoot "3gun", prize table, can anyone beat the table at RM3G or SMM3G ?? There's always the question of the match itself, where it will be held and what will it be ran like, will "I have a good time". Believe me if I could afford it I would go to every single major 3gun in the country but I cant. And so I, and appearently several other people, have to make hard choices with their time and money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 Charles, #1 on my list would be to apologize to the myriad of BIG 3 gun shooters and multigun shooters that offered to help USPSA many years ago and then they're suggestions were snubbed. Don't bother asking me for thier names, I won't give them. If it was before your time then ask around. #2 would be have 3 gunners and multigunners with EXPERIENCE, Big match experience, not pistol shooters, design your stages, in order to accomplish that you are probably going to have to do #1 first. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bore Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 It would be helpful if you could address how USPSA is lacking in the factors you cite and what you believe would ba a specific improvement which would attract more shooters. All I can cite is my own personal expirience or more specifically judgement. The question addressed was why do the outlaws fill up with a waiting list ? I think the one major item that is overlooked is "reputation". On a limited amount of shooting funds each year I have to make choices. A major 3gun match with support and ammo for 3 guns, hotel, food, and the every growing match fees, can reach up to $2000.00. When I sit down and have to pick one match over another, the outlaw will always win over USPSA. Reputation is a huge part of my decision. USPSA has a reputation also. Fair or not, I have to make a decision based on the reputation given to the match by respected patrons of the match in recent years. I know what I'm getting at established outlaw matches and new one's usually get good praise as well. Aside from the scoring system, "my personal choice" is to not shoot another pistol match with my rifle, I shoot a lot of USPSA pistol already and now I want shoot "3gun", prize table, can anyone beat the table at RM3G or SMM3G ?? There's always the question of the match itself, where it will be held and what will it be ran like, will "I have a good time". Believe me if I could afford it I would go to every single major 3gun in the country but I cant. And so I, and appearently several other people, have to make hard choices with their time and money. I have to agree with Peter I have only so much cash to hit matchs. So, I am going to the ones that have a good reputation for organization, stage design, and decent prize table. (Ironman, Rocky Mountatian, R&R) Of course the fun factor also ties in. My experiences with USPSA matchs are limited to the 2005 and the 2007 matchs. The last one I went to I traveled over 1200 miles for a pistol match with a rifle. I believe they didn't even take down the stages from the previeous pistol nationals. One long range stage come on... One guy tried to get me to go this year but I opted out. Maybe next year since the reviews from this last one weren't to bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cksh8me Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 It's funny how this thread drifted from how do you get more limited shooters to what's wrong with USPSA. I think there's a clue here somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 It's funny how this thread drifted from how do you get more limited shooters to what's wrong with USPSA.I think there's a clue here somewhere. And I agree completely. What I have asked for is what are we doing wrong and how could we do better. Other than getting the point that USPSA may need a MD that has loads of 3 gun experience (I guess Michael Voigt is not enough), all that have been posted are the most general of comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted November 4, 2009 Author Share Posted November 4, 2009 There is hope! Limited is not dead in Kentucky! We had a local match on Saturday at Owensboro, same place the KY State 3 gun is held. It was about as good of a match as you can have on pistol bays, all rifle targets were reduced size, with hard cover and no shoots. Total of 9 Limited shooters, 9 tac optics shooters, and 7 open shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 From the USPSA multi-gun thread, what can match directors or sponsors do to attract more shooters to Limited? As an iron sight shooter, specifically Heavy Metal typically, I feel like we need to do something now, before even more matches cannot recognize the division based on lack of participation. One idea mentioned that I liked was for sponsors to specify certain prizes for the Ltd table. I don't like the idea of limiting Tac Optics to only X shooters, because if you force someone to shoot a division they don't like, the shooter won't have any fun, or may even drop out of the match. (Same as if I had to shoot Tac Optics!) Lets hear the ideas. Why bother. The world in general is moving away from obsolete irons and towards optics. Let people shoot what they want. If no one shoots limited so be it. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
springy Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Brainstorm--- How to attract more shooters to Limited? I don't know what would bring more iron sight shooters to a match, but I do know what could make someone put a scope on their rifle for their next match........ Have a match with one stage worth 12% of the match, make it a secret stage, make it out in the woods somewhere so the shooter can't see it or get target distances, put 3 truck loads of targets out in the field at varying distances from 50 to 400 yards, and then put an iron sight shooter that has to deal with 36" of bullet drop at the start line, and then stand back and watch him blow up $40 worth of ammunition on the stage. That will pretty much make him put a scope on his rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bore Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Brainstorm--- How to attract more shooters to Limited?I don't know what would bring more iron sight shooters to a match, but I do know what could make someone put a scope on their rifle for their next match........ Have a match with one stage worth 12% of the match, make it a secret stage, make it out in the woods somewhere so the shooter can't see it or get target distances, put 3 truck loads of targets out in the field at varying distances from 50 to 400 yards, and then put an iron sight shooter that has to deal with 36" of bullet drop at the start line, and then stand back and watch him blow up $40 worth of ammunition on the stage. That will pretty much make him put a scope on his rifle. Bring it on. I would love that kind of stage. Since the rifle is my strong point I would eat up that 12% and come back for more. 36 inchs of drop....Childs Play. I can only imagine the whining, mostly from the scoped shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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