ORCA Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 I’m trying to decide if I should put hybrid holes (Popple holes, TJ holes) in a new open gun I built for myself. I was wondering what the other forum members want to see as far as dot movement and felt recoil. Are there any clues or benchmarks to judge an open guns performance by to tell you when you’ve got it right? I’m just not sure what I should see and feel with an open gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Orca, Hybrid holes are never necessary. Many people add them to flatten out the recoil of the gun and adjust the "feel" to their liking. This is a sacrifice though ... as you will increase noise, "shock" and "straight back" recoil as you flatten out the gun and that can be much harder to adjust to than a little more vertical muzzle rise. I have one of each, and prefer the holes myself, and understand the benefits of both. With the current trend of building shorter and lighter guns the ports help flatten out the guns somewhat and make them handle better. I would recommend that you try out a few guns and see how you feel about the ported guns after shooting them. You may immediately love or hate them, depending on your personal preferences. I guess it all really comes back to YOUR personal preferences. Good luck, Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Boit Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 From what I saw , felt and heard, Hybrid holes (small holes) tends to be louder. I also believe they are more efficient than regular holes, that's a physical principle. Smaller ports means more pressure to work with. It will depend on what you like to feel when shooting. As Leo said, if you can, try as much combos as possible and make your own opinion. I used to be a "long comp no ports" (5 inch bull barrel and EGW 9 ports) believer until I try a V6 with 4 port comp. Louder, kick a bit harder in the hand, but in straight line, little dot movement. I love that setup. I also like a short gun, with a V4 (maybe a V6 soon) and a Titanium comp from forum member BrianH (my current gun) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 The holes will make the gun have little more felt recoil straight back and it will be louder..I have one gun with, one without both built by EGW. the guns are both set up to be light with short slides, 'cept one has two port holes. The one without has a little longer comp. Both guns shoot great..I am not sure which one I like best..the gun without portholes seems to bounce a little more, but it is softer in recoil and little heavier out front due to the comp. I can shoot both equally well..so my mind is not made up either.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Bagnato Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 I am shooting a Brazos Custom Pro Sx. I also use the Popple holes. Makes a huge diffrence in the flip. The noise isn't really a factor for the shooter. This gun is also a short gun fast cycling. Bob has done a lot of R & D to figuire the proper placement of the holes and the dimensions. I hope this input helps. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Boit Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 You're true Rob about the noise. It's rather a RO or bystanders issue. Once you're behind the gun, you don't pay attention to that noise. It reminds me the good old times of 9x25 indoors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 I just added 2 hybrid ports to my gun this year. I was on and off about adding them for at least two years before that. I definitely didn't want the extra noise but after shooting a gun that was virtually identical to mine but with the hybrid ports, I decided to have them put in the gun. I have a 5 port EGW comp and the gun does not hit back any harder when I added the ports but it definitely shoots flatter so all things being equal, I dissagree that they make the gun come back harder. Generally smaller comps and different loads account for that more than adding ports I think. My wife's gun is identical to mine and while she's generally oblivious to changes in loads and gun setup, she noticed the hybrid ports right away and appreciated the result. Because she's small, light, and not particularly athletic, the difference in muzzle flip for her is significant and obvious. I have been playing with powder and bullet weights and found that I can go to slightly faster powders and heavier bullets and the gun still shoots flat. VV 3n37 or N350 with 115s was positively obnoxious because of the noise. N350 with 125s is still bad but more BOOM and less CRACK. I'm now using 4756 and 125s and the gun is still very flat and the noise is substancially less that with 115s or VV powders. Keep in mind that the noise level is a relative thing. Any major load I've shot with the hybrid holes is WAY louder than any powder/bullet combo before I had the ports. After shooting a season with them, I don't think I'd build another open gun without them unless the PF went back to 175. At 182+ PF, the gun was plenty flat without them and probably just as loud which brings up the ultimate irony. I was opposed to reducing the PF to 165 and had some conversations with my AD about it. He told me one of the biggest reasons for reducing PF was because the noise and blast from open guns was beating up the ROs so much. First thing that happened after the PF reduction was a big increase in shooters using 115s which made the blast and noise much worse and then everybody started drilling holes in their barrels. I think overall, open guns are louder now than before - well at least since the 9x25 fad peetered out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 When did the 9x25 "fad" peter out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Leo, We KNOW you missed the memo man!! 90000X25 has been out for, well hell, as long as I have been around shooting, oh wait, thats only been since 97'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Paul, I've been deaf from my 9x25 since before you were shooting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORCA Posted November 11, 2003 Author Share Posted November 11, 2003 The general consensus appears to be those that have guns with hybrid ports like them. The trade off is more recoil and blast for a flatter shooting gun. This is what I’ve been led to believe by talking with people and reading posts in the forum. I was just wondering when the performance of the gun was optimized to the point that any further tinkering was futile. I took my new gun out for a test run this weekend to function test it. As far as felt recoil I could not be happier. I could barley notice it all, blast yes, recoil no (I am blast sensitive, flip hating but recoil oblivious). With a light grip (not trying to physically control the flip) the dot would track from the center of the A zone to about two inches below the top of the A zone at 15 yards. Using my normal grip at 15 yards it just kind of wiggles around. Going wide open I was shooting 6 shot 2-inch groups. If I can do that are hybrid ports worth the trouble? My general feeling at the moment is I’ll put the cuts in the slide for the ports, shoot the gun for a while, and add the ports latter if I decide I need them. The gun is a strange little animal, so maybe I should describe it. It’s a long wide frame / dust cover cut back to commander length with a threaded AET bull barrel, three sided cut slide and a 4 port comp. Think IMMI with a wide dust cover and you get the idea. After shooting the gun I feel like the additional weight might have made hybrid ports unnecessary, it may also be soaking up some of the recoil. I have shot other guns with hybrid ports, but unfortunately I’ve never been able to do a side-by-side comparison with nearly identical guns. I am planning on performing a comparison this weekend with a friend’s SVI, which has a couple of hybrid ports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Orca, Let me make a few more observations for your consideration. As long as the gun has a small amount of vertical "flip" the dot maintains a consistent and predictable track after each shot. As you reduce the flip, to the point where it almost ceases to exist, the gun begins more of a side-to-side movement instead of the vertical pattern. This is caused by the recoil acting upon your grip, stance and arm position. As these 3 factors change (during a course of fire) the direction and magnitude of the oscillation will change and this leads to far less predictability and consistency in the movement of the gun when compared to the vertical flip scenario. When you combine this side-to-side movement with the fact that the "A" zone is 11" tall but under 6" wide you have a target which is very tolerant of vertical stringing but not nearly as tolerant of horizontal stringing. Simply put, you will tend to shoot more C's and D's with horizontal stringing than with vertical stringing. Many years of experimenting with the 9x25 have allowed me to adjust the compensation of the gun to the point where the gun can be made to have almost no muzzle rise or even to recoil downward. The best combination is to have just enough muzzle lift to keep the "track" consistent and predictable so that you can reliably call your shots. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Leo, Yea, but you'd think all that muzzle blast would have knocked some sense into you by now. I've shot Leo's 90000X25 and it actually feels to me that the gun has downward recoil. I'm saying feels like, Leo says it doesn't. Very strange feeling.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Paul, I recently put some muzzle "flip" back into the gun to make it track more predictably and consistently, in accordance with my previous post. It makes a noticeable difference in the points. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jody Waring Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Leo, I remember you saying you have or did have a Gold Team, did you ever add popple holes to it, or know anyone who did to this type of gun? Eric G has 9 ports in his barrell, I've seen some good video footage of him shooting and that gun really stays put! His splits are really tight, and another shooter that I see with the ports and a super flat gun is Saul Kirsch with his BulM5, I believe he uses an STI trubor barrell with 3 ports that look really big. SP2 powder and 124 grain bullets for both shooters, I guess the port idea is definitely worth it. Saul also uses the recoil-master; this help that increased recoil others have mentioned?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Carter Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Leo, that's the best explanation I've ever read of how ports affect the dot tracking. So many people think that an absolute flat shooting pistol is the way to go but I've found exactly the same thing you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager1147 Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Jody, you mentioned Eric G and Sual K use SP2 powder, have you given it a shot in the P9? I've heard it is difficult to meter, but does it affect the way the comp works very much? Fast or slow powder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Jody, I still have my 9x21 Gold Team gun but it is not ported. I have several different compensators that I have used on that gun, to adjust the feel, but never resorted to ports. With the old power factor it was a serious job to simply make major ... did not think the caliber needed the extra complication of adding ports. Might be possible with the current power factor though. Ross, Thanks ... great minds think alike! Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jody Waring Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Jager, Some burn charts list it close to 540, and others much slower. We would have to talk with someone thats used it. I have looked around everywhere here in Canada, and asked lots of shooters, and can't find any. I've really wanted to try it to see what the fuss is all about, as its the ticket in Europe and seems to realy have taken off in the USA. My best experience is with 540, HS6, and I've experimented with HS7. IMR powder loaded in short 9x21 for me anyway never panned out. I liked the feel of 7625, but with loads only around 160PF, my primers flattened out. In the P9, 124 grain bullets seem to be the best, my comp is similar to yours, just one more chamber. HS6 makes lots of gas, HS7 makes lots of gas too, and the pressure seems much lower. With my comp, and no holes, the 115's track the dot side to side like Leo talked about, but the 124's give me that nice little bounce of the dot up and down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sincityshooter Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 I shot with 4 ports in my barrel for years. Over a year ago I switched to a comp only (lightened slide) SV gun. I really don't care how high up the dot goes. It's consistent and I can't out shoot the dot. If I can get 2 shots in the A zone at 10 yards with a .11 split, does it matter how high the dot goes? I have noticed on some really loud, swiss cheese barreled guns that the dot just wiggles around... I find it tough to call the shot since it just shakes. Just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcattack Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I have an open gun with the wide dust cover cut back. It always felt to front heavy. So I had the slide lightned some. Then the muzzle rise increased so I put ports in the barrel after that it started diving; to much comp work. Went with the brian ti comp. Now it shoots good and flat but sometime's I wonder if I should not have just left it alone. I dont think it matters till one gets to A class or better before it makes a difference. Lighter, ported, shorty's are all for faster shooting. If you want to go faster get another gun in one the before mentioned designs. Good shooting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 FWIW I like flat shooting open guns. Dot not leaving the optic. Lets you *know* that you're still on target even while the gun isn't ready to shoot yet. Increased confidence, decreased uncertainty. Having said that, I'm not willing to live with the concussion of a 9x25 or a true Shueman 4-port Hybrid. One big TJ hole, or 2-3 small ones, please. And light bullets, at least 9.5 grains of powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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