G-ManBart Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Before anybody starts, lets not jump on folks and make this an attack on anyone please I have noticed a trend with many newer/less experienced shooters where they are just always in the way as the group is trying to do their walk through. Normally the stage has one or two ways to go about it and a line forms up and we sort of shuffle through it and then gradually wait a little bit longer between people so you get a better idea of the steps to a new position etc. At almost every match where there's been a newer shooter or two on my squad they always seem to be jumping in between and then staying there forever while you're waiting on them. The scenario goes: you wait until the guy/gal ahead of you has gone far enough that you can walk through at a brisk pace...get to the first position, start moving to the next position and bam...the newbie cuts in ahead of you so you have to stop and wait which was exactly why you were pausing in the first place. Yes, they tend to be lower classified shooters, but that's where most everybody starts so it makes sense. Sure, there are career D shooters who know better, and I'm thrilled they're shooting and happy to squad with them....so this isn't about that. I think the problem is I'm sorting out the best way to move, where I'm going to step, how many steps etc, and they're usually just looking at the shooting (understandable) so I'm sure it never occurs to them why someone is leaving this seemingly big gap in the line. Anybody have an idea here? Ideally someone might mention it to them "he's leaving a gap so he doesn't have to stop between positions and wait on someone, so cutting is kinda bad form"....something along those lines. I just seem to run into it frequently where I wind up with the same guy doing it over and over the entire match and I don't want to say it since I don't want it to come off as "hey, don't cut in front of me" and have them think I'm an ass (or any more of one that I really am...lol). I also don't want to upset a newer shooter and have them thinking about it because they need to be focused on what they're trying to do too. So, if anybody has a good idea, throw it out there. My next bigger match I may try to do a group thing and say "hey, I've noticed this before, and I'm sure I've been guilty of it myself in the past, so let's all try to avoid it....yell at me if you need to!". Let's hear it....anybody? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Get the MD to mention something during the course-description or shooter's meeting. Failing that, just shoot them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slabbie Shooter Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I've never heard this discussed during the pre brief, and it should. I never knew that you stood in line until I got some dirty looks.. New shooters need to be told everything. Even the etiquette stuff. Also remember when you were new, and were so nervous you didn't even know anyone was there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Not a bad idea... It might be time for me to update the old Etiquette document, it's on this forum somewhere ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 @ G-man Bart... I'll help you with the line cutters if you help me with the non-match participants who show up a half hour before the match ends to come in and whore up all our brass off the bays...as we are still trying to shoot and/or put props away. If ya ask me, it's not just the newbies who need a lesson in etiquette and good manners....not to mention Black's legal dictionary definition of the word "larceny". Just as a matter of me airgunning a stage beforehand, I will start airgunning, make it through 2 or 3 arrays, counting up the shots (2, 4, 6 and so on) and then there will be some hiccup. I will just hop back in line from the very beginning if there is nobody waiting there at the start position, and start all over. I'm sure at some point I have inadvertently cut in line and just didn't realize it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristotle Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 How about "hey IDIOT..." Some times tough love is the only way. I have a couple of good friends that do not hesitate to call it like it is and I appreciate them for their honesty. Like my buddy JPL once told me "they don't have to like you Ari, just respect you...". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcarter Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I guess I'm a little more passive than some but I wouldn't just jump on someone for first or maybe second offense. I would tell them off to the side how things are done. I wouldn't do this in front of everyone in order to avoid the possibility of hurting ego's. Now, if I took all these steps and they continued to act this way then it may be time to front them out. "Be nice until it is time to not be nice." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trevoro Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Say, "Hey, want some help with your movement? Move out of the way and I'll run you through my plan." Give them a tip about footwork and shooting position. They will figure out quickly what you are doing in your walk through and why it is a more important part of planning the stage than staring at the targets. Once they realize that, they will probably figure out getting out of your way on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 at my current level of don't give a ____ -itis I don't even care about earning people's respect any more. What are these other people to me? Why should I want or even need them to respect me? Is there something wrong with a person's self-esteem that they have to yearn for other people to respect them? Am I over-self-esteemed with my DILLIGAF attitude? Respect is a two way street the last time I checked. I would just rather keep my head down, my mouth shut, show up to shoot, leave and NOT get involved with all the miscellaneous soap opera stuff. Be rude to me or my buds, and I will call you out on it. I spent 3 years as basically a "drill sergeant". I know how to cut people down fairly well when they screw up or step out of their lane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 If you tell a newbie he is an idiot...for not knowing what nobody (like you more experienced shooters) had bothered to teach him...what does that make you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcarter Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 at my current level of don't give a ____ -itis I don't even care about earning people's respect any more.What are these other people to me? Why should I want or even need them to respect me? Is there something wrong with a person's self-esteem that they have to yearn for other people to respect them? Am I over-self-esteemed with my DILLIGAF attitude? Respect is a two way street the last time I checked. I would just rather keep my head down, my mouth shut, show up to shoot, leave and NOT get involved with all the miscellaneous soap opera stuff. Be rude to me or my buds, and I will call you out on it. I spent 3 years as basically a "drill sergeant". I know how to cut people down fairly well when they screw up or step out of their lane. Someone needs a hug! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slabbie Shooter Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 If you tell a newbie he is an idiot...for not knowing what nobody (like you more experienced shooters) had bothered to teach him...what does that make you? It makes you the guy who helps shrink the population of practical shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Just make the casual remark that there is a shooting etiquette, provide a 15 second explanation and move on. Recognize that you then have adopted that new shooter as he/she will be so appreciative that someone explained something to them. Small price to pay to grow the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 A little kindness goes a long way. For example, when I run newer shooters, if they do something that could potentially get them in trouble, I pull them aside after scoring their targets and explain to them what they are doing, and how to avoid it going forward. I always use pleases and thank-yous when applicable. If a match has a high level of new shooters, I mention during the shooters meeting that this is not a spectator sport, and pasting/setting steel is a part of the experience, and that if they are unsure of what they should be doing, to ask another shooter. People in the box when I am up...explain it quietly to them first. Often times they truly don't know better, and jumping their funk is doing little to invite them back. Very few people are behaving that way to simply be a jerk. If you have a jerk on your squad, then the rules change a little...but this is uncommon at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 It's not just new and inexperienced shooters. I know of plenty of seasoned shooters who get in the way of almost every shooter ahead of them doing a rehearsal out of turn. There are lots of premadonna me-first types out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junglerott Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I'm a new shooter that has been guilty of this. I have shot less than a dozen matches and I shoot production. During my first few matches I was guilty of cutting in line, not because I am rude or disrespectful, but because I didn't know why people were waiting to walk through when there was more than enough room to go ahead. I also caught myself cutting in when I was doing walkthroughs where I would mess up counting rounds or realized my mag change would be in a bad spot. I would not cut the full line, but I would back up and start over from my previous reload point. I try to pay more attention now. I think it's something that comes with experience. In my eyes I was wondering why people were just standing there when we only have a limited time to walk through. It definitely takes me more time to get some stage plans right and sometimes I end up having no plan and having to think of one while I am pasting. I think if a more experienced shooter approaches a new shooter politely the newbie would respond well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 We all started out knowing next to nothing. For some of us we had a lot to learn just to get up to knowing nothing! Most stages allow for and encourage the 'conga line' approach. A few really good stages have everyone taking different paths. Some stage designers build an exit into the end of the stage so the walk-through line has a place to go as opposed to walking back through the squad. We try to mentor the new shooters we attract in both shooting and match management. Many of those that received this mentoring are now us! And we should remember this and pass it along. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSteel Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 We have a New shooters meeting at each match as I'm sure others do. This would be a good place to make sure everyone knows the protocal. Missing that, just look the line cutter in the eye and say "Please let me know when your finished". That usually gets the point across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I remember during my first couple matches, one of the more senior shooters would walk the course with me making suggestions. They also reminded me about protocol for walk throughs, etc. One thing I noticed the other weekend is that there were people in the squad who apparently weren't aware or paying attention to the shooter on deck, who always had a chance at a last walk while taping was being done. I got preempted by someone that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee King Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 The one that really chaffes me is the guy on the NEXT squad who walks through while you're on deck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 A new shooter is only going to get patience and encouragement from me Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 this stuff gets handled at the nationals level...sometimes fun to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 this stuff gets handled at the nationals level...sometimes fun to watch. Care to explain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 dcarter wrote: "Be nice until it is time to not be nice." That's my m.o. right there. I really can be the nicest guy in the world. And.. .... NO I do NOT need a hug. What rubs me the wrong way is those things said or done intentionally as "digs" against your fellow shooter. A new shooter class or orientation before these newbies step even one foot onto a USPSA stage would go a long way into alleviating a lot of these problems. "Nip it in the bud!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HPD SRT Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Never had a problem with that, but that being said if somebody did do that they would get set straight about the courtesy of walk throughs. After that it's no more nice nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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