RO interference from an Audio standpoint

[CHA-LEE]

Currently the USPSA Rules state that the RO should only give safety commands to the shooter during a COF. Such as “STOP” when he see’s a safety violation.

A while back I witnessed a strange situation that negatively impacted the shooters run and I have been mulling it over in my head as to what the correct way to handle it would be.

Here are the conditions. Shooter starts COF and is going fine, is safe and not violating any rules. He shoots a string of plates and some splatter hits the RO and he yells out “OUCH!!!”. The RO’s yelling out causes the shooter to stop mid stage thinking that he has done something wrong since the RO said something very loud but the RO tells the shooter to continue on. The shooters run was negatively impacted by pausing due to the RO’s yelling out. Thankfully the RO wasn’t hurt by the splatter and the shooter wasn’t too upset about stopping so he just blew it off.

The question here is this. Could the shooter have called for a reshoot due to RO interference because he yelled out and it caused the shooter to stop shooting?

[Nik Habicht]

Currently the USPSA Rules state that the RO should only give safety commands to the shooter during a COF. Such as “STOP” when he see’s a safety violation.

A while back I witnessed a strange situation that negatively impacted the shooters run and I have been mulling it over in my head as to what the correct way to handle it would be.

Here are the conditions. Shooter starts COF and is going fine, is safe and not violating any rules. He shoots a string of plates and some splatter hits the RO and he yells out “OUCH!!!”. The RO’s yelling out causes the shooter to stop mid stage thinking that he has done something wrong since the RO said something very loud but the RO tells the shooter to continue on. The shooters run was negatively impacted by pausing due to the RO’s yelling out. Thankfully the RO wasn’t hurt by the splatter and the shooter wasn’t too upset about stopping so he just blew it off.

The question here is this. Could the shooter have called for a reshoot due to RO interference because he yelled out and it caused the shooter to stop shooting?

The shooter certainly could have asked....

The R.O. could/should have probably offered.....

[Sarge]

Well, as a new RO I will stick my neck out here. If I did that and clearly caused the shooter to stop I would have offered a reshoot. Basically I was taught to keep my mouth shut no matter what unless I needed the shooter to hear me, i.e "stop". Which is what I would say if I ever got hit by shrapnel and it hurt to the point of limiting my ability to RO. But I think it would have to be a pretty serious injury.

But on the other hand I have been taught as a shooter to never ever stop unless you hear "stop" from the RO. But in the heat of the COF I can see the potential for any yelling to be distracting enough to cause a shooter to at least hesitate and make sure the RO isn't laying on the ground twitching or what not.

I think when this thread gets going most will say something like the RO screwed up but the shooter should not have stopped or words to that effect. But again I would offer a reshoot if I screwed the shooters COF up.

[JThompson]

I would have offered a reshoot... then again, I wouldn't have yelled until after the run.

[BSeevers]

The RO should be quiet and offer a reshoot. With double muffs ouch can sound like stop. Now we all gotta yell ouch sometimes too so use judgement and if you see shooter hesitate, stop, look back, start unloading thats a reshoot. Not a shooter who had 2 mikes trying to BS a reshoot. Thats different.

Basically all a RO should say is Load and Make Ready Are You Ready......

Except for safety commands.

Some RO's wanna Chit Chat with you too as you enter the box. That shouldn't happen, talk afterwards guys.

We have a RO disipline prcess. Not needed here but its there too.

Edited August 10, 2009 by BSeevers

[FranDoc]

I'll beat Mr. Stevens to the punch and quote the rule book here ...

8.6.6 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence (emphasis added) has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt....

The unexpected audio input certainly interfered. Therefore, offer a reshoot.

Saying "ouch" when you're smacked with frag usually is reflex, not 100% controllable.

[CHA-LEE]

Thanks for the replies on this. It makes total sense. I assumed that the shooter should have been offered a reshoot, but I wanted to make sure.

Here is another stupid question....... Is there a difference between the RO offering a reshoot and a Shooter asking for one in this situation? Obviously in this case the RO didn't know the rules on the situation. So is it appropriate for the shooter to point out the rule and ask for a reshoot?

[WDB]

Sure you can ask for it. You can ask for a lot of things just know the rule and, as stated above, you have to do it and explain why you want it BEFORE anything is scored. Once they start calling out hits and you see you choked it's to late.

[Nik Habicht]

Thanks for the replies on this. It makes total sense. I assumed that the shooter should have been offered a reshoot, but I wanted to make sure.

Here is another stupid question....... Is there a difference between the RO offering a reshoot and a Shooter asking for one in this situation? Obviously in this case the RO didn't know the rules on the situation. So is it appropriate for the shooter to point out the rule and ask for a reshoot?

Sure. Best practice should be to ask politely immediately upon finishing --- I'd probably ask just before unloading to make sure I wouldn't hear a time or hits....

[JohnRodriguez]

I'll beat Mr. Stevens to the punch and quote the rule book here ...

8.6.6 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence (emphasis added) has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt....

The unexpected audio input certainly interfered. Therefore, offer a reshoot.

Saying "ouch" when you're smacked with frag usually is reflex, not 100% controllable.

I don't think that Gary would agree with you. He might quote the rule, but will probably say the commen sense is needed in a situation like this. If somebody in the squad sneezes or coughs while you are shooting, are you intitaled to a rehoot. i don't think so. If the shooter hears someone yell "ouch", is he/she supposed to stop automatically and assume they are going to get a a reshoot? I don't thinks so. I'd look at them and point the to the running clock, and might say that the clock is running. because the command "stop" has not been called. If you think that all the crap that rises when somebody's buddy tapes a target before it is scored, so they can get a reshoot is a problem, just wait if this type of behavior is expected or allowed. You will have a nationals that will last a whole week just to get tru all the reshoots, till people are happy with the runs they are getting on each stage.

this situation is a simple case of shooter experience. The more experienced shooters will block out all the outside influences while shooting a stage and just worry about the job at hand. A lot of times these are the shooter that will go flying to the ground, keep the gun pointed down range and get up and continue shooting, because they did not hear stop yelled out.

Edited August 11, 2009 by JohnRodriguez

[CHA-LEE]

I agree that any comments, noises or whatever other than "STOP" coming from the "Peanut Gallery" should be ignored by the shooter, and if not a reshoot of the stage should not be granted due to the shooter being distracted by outside influences.

What happened was the RO yelling out "OUCH!!!", not the other shooters watching the stage run. Since the RO is not to say anything other than "STOP" during the stage run I think it was an acceptable reaction to pause when he heard the RO yell simply for safety’s sake alone.

I am not saying that we need explicit rules for every single failure condition. I think we have enough rules already frankly. I just feel that a situation like this falls under the common courtesy umbrella to give the shooter a reshoot because his run was negatively impacted by the RO's untimely outburst.

[trevoro]

I understand the importance of rules, but this is a game and a ruling on their interpretation in this will be good. But whatever the ruling, the shooter did right to stop, showing that he had regard for the other human beings on the range. It is wrong to suggest through the rules or through comments on their interpretation that the shooter should have disregarded a clear indication of injury to a fellow competitor.

If the game ever gets that serious...forget it.

IMO the RO showed poor character or judgment or both in not offering a reshoot. Maybe he was secretly pissed at the shooter for hitting him with splatter. Thank god nobody is currently writing about my poor character or judgment or both shown as a competitor. It must be time to get off the high horse.

[kgunz11]

The RO should be quiet and offer a reshoot. With double muffs ouch can sound like stop. Now we all gotta yell ouch sometimes too so use judgement and if you see shooter hesitate, stop, look back, start unloading thats a reshoot. Not a shooter who had 2 mikes trying to BS a reshoot. Thats different.

Basically all a RO should say is Load and Make Ready Are You Ready......

Except for safety commands.

Some RO's wanna Chit Chat with you too as you enter the box. That shouldn't happen, talk afterwards guys.

We have a RO disipline prcess. Not needed here but its there too.

Actually, since the OP said "USPSA rule book", I'd assume we are shooting a USPSA style of competition where the RO should never say "Load and Make Ready". The "Load" part was dropped, as I understand it, to allow the shooter to do other things under the "Make Ready" command. I know that command is habit for a lot of folks, but at some point we have to try and use the rules from the current rule book which states the command as "Make Ready". When I use to RO shooters at local club matches, I had a hard time remembering not to say "if clear slide down, hammer down, and holster". There is nothing in the range commands about the slide, so I had to train myself to omit it. The bad thing about that is in range practice I had my wife saying it, and now that she IS an RO, she has to make a conscious effort not to say it either if she had to RO someone.

[Gary Stevens]

Actually I am going to agree with Fran on this one. While the peanut gallery is one thing, the RO is another. I have always felt the RO should be a non issue for the shooter, during the course of fire, except for the accepted areas of safety and normal range commands. Ouch is not an accepted range command although it is understandable under the circumstances.

I would remind everyone though that the shooter should never, never stop unless they clearly hear a command of "stop" issued by the RO. Most of us have enough voice on us to be able to make the shooter hear us if we need to.

This year at the Single Stack Nationals I got tangled up with a shooter physically. It was so bad that I actually had my hands on him to keep myself from falling down. The shooter never quit putting rounds down range even with me hanging on him, which I though showed quiet a bit of determination on his part. Obviously he got a reshoot.

As Vince Pinto says, Fran gets a cookie.

[Sarge]

Actually I am going to agree with Fran on this one. While the peanut gallery is one thing, the RO is another. I have always felt the RO should be a non issue for the shooter, during the course of fire, except for the accepted areas of safety and normal range commands. Ouch is not an accepted range command although it is understandable under the circumstances.

I would remind everyone though that the shooter should never, never stop unless they clearly hear a command of "stop" issued by the RO. Most of us have enough voice on us to be able to make the shooter hear us if we need to.

This year at the Single Stack Nationals I got tangled up with a shooter physically. It was so bad that I actually had my hands on him to keep myself from falling down. The shooter never quit putting rounds down range even with me hanging on him, which I though showed quiet a bit of determination on his part. Obviously he got a reshoot.

As Vince Pinto says, Fran gets a cookie.

I knew I heard somewhere that the shooter should never stop unless told to do so.

[Singlestack]

This reminds me of a situation we had last month at a local match. I took the RO OUT with splatter on a stage. The stage was designed so I had to retreat from one box to another box up range. The RO was standing on my right and the box was up range to my left. On my last shot from box one I heard the RO go UGH. I paid it no attention and turned to my left and retreated up range to box 2. When I turned back down range I was very surprised to see the RO on his knees with his head in his hands down range of me. He had taken a hit where his ear is attached to his head from splatter hard enough to make him see stars for a moment.

Of course I stopped and had another RO clear me so we could attend to our wounded friend. The point of this is there are 2 safety valves at all times and one of them is the shooter.

[CHA-LEE]

I agree with Singlestack. Even though the rules state that the shooter shouldn’t stop themselves until given the range command of "STOP" there are safety failure conditions where the shooter needs to assess the situation and error on the safety side of the street.

Singlestack gives a perfect example of this. The RO was incapacitated by the splatter and couldn’t issue the STOP command, so he stopped himself.

Gary gives another example. If the RO is getting tangled up with the shooter while he is shooting that is a VERY dangerous situation. No matter how determined the shooter is he should have stopped himself to ensure the situation was handled safely as soon as the RO touched him verses chugging along like a machine. Why didn’t the RO issue the STOP command as soon as the tangle started? That is a good point in its self. We all know how quickly situations can happen on a COF and a lot of times the “STOP” command is given AFTER the infraction happens, not exactly when it does happen. So its really up to the shooter to assess the situation and act accordingly to ensure the situation is safe.

I don’t know about you guys but for me there is no stage run worth risking the safety of myself or others. If I am in the middle of a COF and I hear the RO yell out anything that I can’t immediately understand and dismiss I am going to stop myself to ensure that everything is safe. If my stage run is impacted and I don’t get a reshoot, then oh well. I at least made sure that the situation was safe. I am willing to throw away a stage run if I have to in order to ensure a safe shooting environment. I would hope that most other shooters feel this way as well.

I also want to point out that the original situation that I depicted was not me. I witnessed it happen to another shooter. From a safety standpoint, I believe that the shooter did the right thing in stopping himself. From an RO standpoint, I believe that the RO didn’t yell out on purpose to ruin the shooters run. It was just a reaction to being hit by the splatter. But I do think it was bad form for the RO to not STOP the shooter as soon as he seen the hesitation to his outburst and offer a reshoot.

[Gary Stevens]

Well I guess I am going to have to expand my comment a little bit.

First there are always situations where "common sense" applies to safety issues as described in the above scenario. Enough said.

On my slow dance with the shooter, he was already in the process of hammering three remaining targets ,and only had two maybe three shots left on a lateral movement. He was shooting fast enough that he was able to fire the shots despite me tangling up with him and before I could do anything but try to keep both of us from falling on our butts.

As we all know, things happen fast in our sport and sometimes the best laid plans of mice and men often go astray.

[SA Friday]

Stuff happens. I've asked for reshoots because of external factors before, but it's really rare. I've also stopped my shooting on a course of fire once before the RO said 'stop' because of an unsafe condition. I had a neighbor dog run onto the back of the berm while I was shooting. He was directly behind the last array I was shooting when I saw him. The RO was watching my gun and didn't see him until everyone started shouting. Can't cover everything in the rule book. Ultimately, let the competition determine where people are in the standings, not some fluke happening.

Edited August 11, 2009 by SA Friday

[elynch2007]

As a shooter , I would ask for the Rangemaster to deterime if a reshoot should be issued. The reason for this is the RO thinks he did not do anything wrong or he would have said something to the shooter at the end of the COF. All reshoots are issued for good reason and with a rule to back it up. To many times a reshoot is offered to a shooter as a choice to reshot or not.

[Nik Habicht]

I just feel that a situation like this falls under the common courtesy umbrella to give the shooter a reshoot because his run was negatively impacted by the RO's untimely outburst.

I'm gonna nitpick a little here --- it's not about common courtesy, it's about applying the rules fairly and equitably to every competitor. 8.6.4 leaves the determination whether or not to offer a reshoot to the R.O. and stipulates some conditions that must be met.....

As a shooter , I would ask for the Rangemaster to deterime if a reshoot should be issued. The reason for this is the RO thinks he did not do anything wrong or he would have said something to the shooter at the end of the COF. All reshoots are issued for good reason and with a rule to back it up. To many times a reshoot is offered to a shooter as a choice to reshot or not.

Some R.O.s might not remember 8.6.4, might not have experience with all of the things that could fall under that rule. (Which by the way is the only rule that offers a reshoot opportunity; all others are command reshoots...) I see no problem with the competitor asking for a reshoot before hearing time or hits....

[al503]

If I hear something from the RO and can't make it out, I'm stopping regardless of whether I get a reshoot or not.

Blown stage v. any chance that I'll put someone or something in danger? Not even a question.

[pskys2]

Since Reshoots can sometimes screw with a competitor, I'd try not to stop him until the end. Then turn him around and ask him if he wants a reshoot. If all he did was hesitate, and depending on the course, the competitor may not want a reshoot. But he definitely would deserve one.

I had a bounce back off of a Re-bar plate stand hit me right between the nose and lip, I actually saw the base of a .40 cal. MG 180 FMJ and had time to kind of think "Oh S*&!" before it hit or at least it seemed like it, but not time to move. Luckily the competitor only had 6 shots left, I don't think I made a sound. But the look on the guys face when I cleared him was priceless, think the blood pouring down my face freaked him a bit.

[Vulture]

Our club has a lot of steel so we frequently have 32 round all steel coures, which also can be used as a shotgun side match after the regular match. We had one a few weeks ago that was basicly a poor design, the steel was at minimum distance through the whole course. An RO got smacked in the face with hunk of lead and lost control of the shooter. The shooter just continued on oblivious to what was happening behind him and finished the course basicly without an RO watching him. The RO was not too far away but his eyes were watering so bad he couldn't see what was going on to the extent needed. I have started telling new RO's that if you can't do your job as the RO, it is ok to yell STOP. The shooter may be wondering what he's done but if you tell him he will get a reshoot because you have a hunk of lead imbedded in your skull, i think he will understand. The RO must be able to keep control of the shooter at all times and if i was bowled over by a competitor or slipped and fell or was hit in the face to the extent that i can't do the job i would yell STOP.

[kgunz11]

I have started telling new RO's that if you can't do your job as the RO, it is ok to yell STOP. The shooter may be wondering what he's done but if you tell him he will get a reshoot because you have a hunk of lead imbedded in your skull, i think he will understand. The RO must be able to keep control of the shooter at all times and if i was bowled over by a competitor or slipped and fell or was hit in the face to the extent that i can't do the job i would yell STOP.

Can you support that with a rule from the rule book? We generally have 2 RO's on every CoF, sometimes more at major matches. I don't think it's OK to yell "STOP" because the RO gets hit with slag, thus ending a shooters run. I think he should step aside and urge the score keeper to proceed with the shooter, hopefully passing the timer to them as they go by.