Dropping the Slide on an Empty Chamber

[Steven Cline]

Well I don't.

If you are confident that it doesn't, put an extra power hammer spring and an extra power recoil spring and sling shot the slide a 30-100 times on an empty chamber. Then go practice with it.

Video tape it so we can see that I'm FOS. This is with a <2 lb trigger job.

I am confident that it will not damage my gun. I will shoot the video this Saturday AM and post it Saturday PM. I will not be altering the gun, it will be done with the springs it came with. This will be done with a Kimber Supermatch II, which incidentally already has hundreds if not thousands of dropped slide incidents already on it.

I was considering challenging you to prove you're not FOS.

I find it interesting that people with no proof what others to prove them wrong, instead of proving they are correct... anyways:

Go fund a real scientific study. Buy a sample of 1911s, leave them stock, drop the slide 1000 times, check for damage, fire 1 shot, repeat until failure or damage is clear. Isolate for adjustable triggers and other things which could cause hammer follow and other damage, get it right to the core of the matter. Document the results, including the material and manufacture of all parts that fail. Submit story and results for money.

Until someone actually does such research it's all just argument. We have people like me who have dropped the slide hundreds of times if not thousands with no damage, and others who report damage but can't be attributed to solely to slide dropping on empty chamber.

Edited July 24, 2009 by PhoneCop

[bkeeler]

I do not see why you would want to drop the slide on an empty chamber, whats the point.(other than checking for hammer follow,potential problems)

Just another opinion.

BK

[mike cyrwus]

Until someone actually does such research it's all just argument. We have people like me who have dropped the slide hundreds of times if not thousands with no damage, and others who report damage but can't be attributed to solely to slide dropping on empty chamber.

Real life experiences dont always come with testable hypotheses. I know enough to know that once hammer follow appears, the quickest way to exacerbate it is to keep testing for it.

[Anthony Lombardo]

Until someone actually does such research it's all just argument. We have people like me who have dropped the slide hundreds of times if not thousands with no damage, and others who report damage but can't be attributed to solely to slide dropping on empty chamber.

Real life experiences dont always come with testable hypotheses. I know enough to know that once hammer follow appears, the quickest way to exacerbate it is to keep testing for it.

That is absolutely correct. But dropping the slide is not the cause of the follow. Thats the point.

[Religious Shooter]

I find it interesting that people with no proof what others to prove them wrong, instead of proving they are correct... anyways:

Did you read all the posts?

Are you saying that I don't have any proof? Or that I didn't have any experience?

To make it clear (and to restate it)... I have dropped the slide and damaged the sear using the test that I outlined. Read the entire thread.

And maybe it is not clear. If you take a 2.5 lb trigger and do what I outlined it is going to pean the sear's face. This does not necessarily mean that it will follow. As I noted above, when I did my test the hammer did not follow.

What it will do is turn your 2.5 lb crisp trigger to a 5-10+ pound trigger with a crappy break.

The purpose of using the heavier springs is to simulate extended abuse in a smaller amount of time.

If you use your stock springs you will eventually damage the face but it will take longer.

Frankly, by using the springs that you have (depending on the poundage) you may not be meeting my "challenge."

If you are confident it won't damage it... use the heavier springs as I specified. Measure the poundage at the start (without the heavier springs) and note how well it breaks.

Then after you slingshot the slide 20-30 times with the heavier springs... reinstall the original springs and measure the poundage and again note how well it breaks.

Again... this is with a gun with a good trigger job. 3.5lbs or less.

If you start with a heavy crappy trigger the difference would be slight. IMHO it doesn't really matter if you drop the slide on a military/mil-spec gun. They have a junky trigger to begin with.

[rooster]

I do it everytime I do something to my trigger that I think might cause hammer follow. I never have seen any indication of damage to my parts. I guess if you do it enough times you may have problems. How would you ever check your trigger jobs if you didn't do this test. I mean that if you have a 3.5# or above you shouldn't have a problem, but down in the 2# range I think that if you drop a slide on an empty chamber and it your hammer doesn't follow then you probably are not going to have a problem in actual use. How does a professional gunsmith check his 2# tiggers? I guess you could go to the range and load 2 then fire, then 3, and so on but who has the time or place to be able to do this kind of testing?

[Religious Shooter]

You should do it (or your gunsmith should do it) directly after a trigger job. Or anytime you want to test the trigger. But other than that, don't do it.

Think about it. Why do people drop the slide after a trigger job? Because it causes stresses that exceed what normally happens during the normal firing of the gun.

People recognize this... that's why they drop the slide on an empty chamber... to test the trigger.

[Lee King]

We obviously have anecdotal evidence dropping the slide could cause damage to the trigger group.

My experience is limited so I'm asking this with all sincerity. What parts make contact with what other parts when dropping the slide that peens or damages? The only thing I see the slide touching is the disconnector and the slide stop pin. Is it the sudden release of the hammer as the slide closes?

In all of this I haven't read the specific reasoning. Just "I did this and this is what the result was" or "I've done this thousands of times and never had a problem". I'd like to know the theory as to why it could happen.

[calishootr]

I have to agree w/ religious shooter, I worked in a inddor shooting range where before I started to insist customers and employee's alike not drop slides the rental guns were basically junk, the slide to frame fit on just about every one of the guns was shot

For me personally, I dont drop the slide on my guns forthat very reason, and Ive had a very nice trigger on my open Blaster for 10 yrs+

What does it effect??? I bought a Gun from a friend who got it from a friend of his,that dropped the slide on a routine basis, well the lugs in the slide were peened over, there was imprints ofthe barrel hood on the breechface etc....oh did i mention the trigger had been replaced at least twice???? yeah I dont drop slides on guns, both for function or as a courtesy to the owner if its not mine

[Larry White]

I was told that it would, I think it might. I know for a fact that not dropping the slide wont hurt anything. I know good parts and good trigger jobs cost money and easing the slide forward is free. I'm pretty sure I will keep doing it the same way I always have.----------Larry

Edited July 24, 2009 by Larry White

[al503]

I was told that it would, I think it might. I know for a fact that not dropping the slide wont hurt anything. I know good parts and good trigger jobs cost money and easing the slide forward is free. I'm pretty sure I will keep doing it the same way I always have.----------Larry

That about sums it up for me.

My standard practice drill is 3 targets, double tap each (strong, weak, free). I'll load 19 bullets in the first mag, and 17 + 1 snap cap in the 2nd so the slide doesn't close on an empty chamber on the last round of the second mag. Probably overkill but it doesn't take any more time and it won't hurt anything either.

[Seth]

I don't understand why this is so difficult to grasp... Grab a piece of steel and a hammer and smack the corner of the steel with the hammer. Now do it again. Now do it again and again and again.

The first time it probably did nothing visually obvious. The 2nd time it might have done nothing obvious. But each and every time there's a collision, you have a microscopic effect on the grain of the steel. Eventually that effect becomes macroscopic and you can see the dent.

A trigger job really isn't any different. When you let the slide go on an empty chamber, the barrel lugs, the link, the slide stop AND the trigger all get beat harder than had you not. I'm quite certain that there are lots of trigger jobs that don't care a bit. They got lots of engagement and you might get away with it for a LONG time... but not forever. Its not magic steel, its just steel and eventually it WILL fail.

My point is that if you do it on MY gun, I'm gonna whack you in the head. If you do it again, I'm gonna whack you in the head again. Either the gun or your head is going to have dented parts when we're done and one of the 2 is going to show premature wear!

[MichiganShootist]

So Chris........ Did you get your question answered to your satisfaction

[Flexmoney]

Just remember, folks...

Brian's place is a discussion forum. It's not a "win the argument forum" (especially with topics like these).

Please share your experiences...and if you end up in disagreement, no big deal.

- Admin.

[Lee King]

So all I've learned from this thread is I'm obviously dense, I'll get smacked in the head if I do it to someone else's gun, and if I take a ball peen hammer to a piece of metal it will peen... duh

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. I don't drop the slide on mine because I don't want to risk it. I can understand it damaging the slide stop. Peening the lugs (I sort of understand). But what specifically happens to mess up the trigger since the slide doesn't really touch it? What is happening inside the gun that I am not understanding?

I'm not a gunsmith and I just want to learn more about it.

[Seth]

Hammer hooks smacking the sear instead of being eased (relatively) on to it.

Seth (not a smith, but worked in steel for a number of years)

[Lee King]

Hammer hooks smacking the sear instead of being eased (relatively) on to it.

Seth (not a smith, but worked in steel for a number of years)

Thanks

[CSEMARTIN]

I do not see why you would want to drop the slide on an empty chamber, whats the point.(other than checking for hammer follow,potential problems)

The event that prompted this thread was just a thought I had at the chrono recently. Three rounds later, the slide is a slidelock and someone else is handling my gun. Do I sound ignorant if I ask the guy to gently release the slide? Am I just perpetuating a myth? Do I get to stand there and have a debate with the guy when neither of us has any proof of what we're talking about?

I do all of my own trigger work, and I'd like to know if testing it this way when I'm done is a good idea or not. That's the only reason I can think of to drop the slide this way. Why not just drop the slide on a dummy round to test a trigger job?

So Chris........ Did you get your question answered to your satisfaction

You know me Mark. I'd like for someone to say they've dropped the slide on an empty chamber over a hundred times and looked at the hammer sear engagement before and after with a 25X microscope. Howeveer, even if someone did that, and there was no visible wear, the best you could say is "with this weight slide, and with this weight recoil spring, and with this poundage of trigger, and this weight mainspring, and with this hammer and sear combination, with perfectly parallel engagement, and perfectly square hooks, there was no sign of wear."

Just remember, folks...

Brian's place is a discussion forum. It's not a "win the argument forum" (especially with topics like these).

Please share your experiences...and if you end up in disagreement, no big deal.

- Admin.

Kyle, Thank you for not closing this thread.

Edited July 24, 2009 by CSEMARTIN

[bkeeler]

The event that prompted this thread was just a thought I had at the chrono recently. Three rounds later, the slide is a slidelock and someone else is handling my gun. Do I sound ignorant if I ask the guy to gently release the slide? Am I just perpetuating a myth? Do I get to stand there and have a debate with the guy when neither of us has any proof of what we're talking about?

No I don't think so at all. While at the Indiana Sectional the guy running the chrono stage asked about dropping the slide on an empty chamber if it was ok to do to your gun or not to let him know when it was your time at the chrono. I politely said that the slide does not lock back on the last round and please do not allow the slide to fall on an empty chamber. He was ok with that.

BK

[Flexmoney]

A couple of the "Big USPSA Match Chrono Guys" will have the shooter look their slide back (any way they please) when they are instructed to place their (empty) gun on the chrono table.

I don't have them do that, because I've seen Mr. Chrono get swept.

When I run chrono, I have them put the gun on the mat. I load FOUR rounds in the magazine, to shoot three rounds (thus, a round feeds after the three I fire and the gun doesn't slam shut on an empty chamber).

Most guns, I will initially thumb cock...feed the mag in...then rack it.

There are some folks out there that would have you hold the trigger to the rear, and then rack the slide. I don't do that, as I am not sure of the condition of the gun.

[Anthony Lombardo]

Hammer hooks smacking the sear instead of being eased (relatively) on to it.

Seth (not a smith, but worked in steel for a number of years)

When the slide (regardless of the velocity)drops, the hammer doesn't smack into the sear. The hammer and sear are locked into place by the hammer spring holding pressure onto the sear nose via the hammer hooks. The only time the hammer hits the sear with any force that could cause any damage is after the gun is cocked by the inertia of the slide. If you hammer grossly "overcocks" because of improper fitting and crashes on your sear it could potentially damage your sear nose. That has nothing at all to do with dropping the slide on an empty chamber as it would potentiall cause the same damage every time you loaded and fired the gun also.

The problem with the "don't drop your slide" mantra is that NO ONE CAN EXPLAIN HOW IT CAN CAUSE DAMAGE. There is no "jarring", there is no "smacking"

There is nothing.

If you have an unsafe trigger from incorrect fitting, bad parts or wear and tear (or all of the above)you have an unsafe trigger. Dropping the slide just unmasks it. It doesn't damage it.

[Anthony Lombardo]

I don't understand why this is so difficult to grasp... Grab a piece of steel and a hammer and smack the corner of the steel with the hammer. Now do it again. Now do it again and again and again.

The first time it probably did nothing visually obvious. The 2nd time it might have done nothing obvious. But each and every time there's a collision, you have a microscopic effect on the grain of the steel. Eventually that effect becomes macroscopic and you can see the dent.

A trigger job really isn't any different. When you let the slide go on an empty chamber, the barrel lugs, the link, the slide stop AND the trigger all get beat harder than had you not. I'm quite certain that there are lots of trigger jobs that don't care a bit. They got lots of engagement and you might get away with it for a LONG time... but not forever. Its not magic steel, its just steel and eventually it WILL fail.

My point is that if you do it on MY gun, I'm gonna whack you in the head. If you do it again, I'm gonna whack you in the head again. Either the gun or your head is going to have dented parts when we're done and one of the 2 is going to show premature wear!

The question is whether or not it will damage a trigger job. Not barrel, slide or slide lock. Thats another discussion altogether. The gun collides all the time. Its designed to collide. The slide smacks the frame with so much force it actually bounces off it and uses that energy to strip the next round.

With this reasoning all 1911's in 10mm, 40 super, 45 Rowland, .45 Super or .38 Casull caliber would self destruct after a few hundred rounds.

The 1911 is one of the strongest handguns ever designed. It would NOT be in service after 100 years if dropping the slide on an empty chamber caused such widespread damage.

[Seth]

I believe you missed the point I was aiming at.

Steel has a lifetime. Each and every time its engaged, some of its lifetime is worn away.

There may be enough inherent rigidity and integrity of the affected surfaces to withstand that abuse for a long time. May be more than the life of the firearm. Ultimately, why would you wear it unnecessarily?

[Religious Shooter]

[When the slide (regardless of the velocity)drops, the hammer doesn't smack into the sear. The hammer and sear are locked into place by the hammer spring holding pressure onto the sear nose via the hammer hooks. The only time the hammer hits the sear with any force that could cause any damage is after the gun is cocked by the inertia of the slide. If you hammer grossly "overcocks" because of improper fitting and crashes on your sear it could potentially damage your sear nose. That has nothing at all to do with dropping the slide on an empty chamber as it would potentiall cause the same damage every time you loaded and fired the gun also.

The problem with the "don't drop your slide" mantra is that NO ONE CAN EXPLAIN HOW IT CAN CAUSE DAMAGE. There is no "jarring", there is no "smacking"

There is nothing.

If you have an unsafe trigger from incorrect fitting, bad parts or wear and tear (or all of the above)you have an unsafe trigger. Dropping the slide just unmasks it. It doesn't damage it.

Wow.

[wide45]

Got to agree with Anthony on the point that dropping the slide does not cause the hammer to contact the sear any differently than when the gun fires.

The only difference I can see is if the trigger is not held back, it will bounce against the disconecter/sear when the slide is dropped. You have a problem if the sear gets bounced enough to partially disengage from the hammer. The pressure, and thus wear, will be concentrated on a much narrower area of the hammer/sear interface.