Dropping the Slide on an Empty Chamber

[CSEMARTIN]

if the trigger is not held back, it will bounce against the disconecter/sear when the slide is dropped.

Great point.

[Anthony Lombardo]

Got to agree with Anthony on the point that dropping the slide does not cause the hammer to contact the sear any differently than when the gun fires.

The only difference I can see is if the trigger is not held back, it will bounce against the disconector/sear when the slide is dropped. You have a problem if the sear gets bounced enough to partially disengage from the hammer. The pressure, and thus wear, will be concentrated on a much narrower area of the hammer/sear interface.

A good way to test this is with a digital trigger gauge.

test your trigger ten times by hand cycling.

Drop the slide from slide lock (yes let it slam) and measure a few times.

If it is measureably lighter it means your trigger is overcoming the sear spring resistance, bouncing against the disco and the sear nose is creeping out of the hooks. It could eventually expose hammer follow once parts wear further from normal use or spring tension decreases. If that is the case you need a lower mass trigger, heavier sear/hammer spring tension, or different sear angles.

There will be NO damage unless the hammer follows and the sear nose hits the half cocks notch......... NONE. ZIP. NADA. ZERO point ZERO.

The main difference between the action of the gun firing/not firing is that the trigger is disconnected while the slide is moving preventing trigger bounce. In ancient times, bullseye gunsmiths counseled shooters to hold the trigger back when loading to prevent trigger bounce. As you could imagine this ventilated many an indoor range ceiling.

Most of the guns then used heavy, steel triggers with steel trigger shoes. The bullseye guns had hand filed, random parts of varying quality and precision.

Holding the trigger back when loading and creating the mantra of "don't drop the slide-EVER" kept shooter's safe with the marginal equipment they were using.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Anthony Lombardo

[Anthony Lombardo]

Got to agree with Anthony on the point that dropping the slide does not cause the hammer to contact the sear any differently than when the gun fires.

The only difference I can see is if the trigger is not held back, it will bounce against the disconector/sear when the slide is dropped. You have a problem if the sear gets bounced enough to partially disengage from the hammer. The pressure, and thus wear, will be concentrated on a much narrower area of the hammer/sear interface.

A good way to test this is with a digital trigger gauge.

test your trigger ten times by hand cycling.

Drop the slide from slide lock (yes let it slam) and measure a few times.

If it is measureably lighter it means your trigger is overcoming the sear spring resistance, bouncing against the disco and the sear nose is creeping out of the hooks. It could eventually expose hammer follow once parts wear further from normal use or spring tension decreases. If that is the case you need a lower mass trigger, heavier sear/hammer spring tension, or different sear angles.

There will be NO damage unless the hammer follows and the sear nose hits the half cocks notch......... NONE. ZIP. NADA. ZERO point ZERO.

The main difference between the action of the gun firing/not firing is that the trigger is disconnected while the slide is moving preventing trigger bounce. In ancient times, bullseye gunsmiths counseled shooters to hold the trigger back when loading to prevent trigger bounce. As you could imagine this ventilated many an indoor range ceiling.

Most of the guns then used heavy, steel triggers with steel trigger shoes. The bullseye guns had hand filed, random parts of varying quality and precision.

Holding the trigger back when loading and creating the mantra of "don't drop the slide-EVER" kept shooter's safe with the marginal equipment they were using.

It is important to realize that you can change the "system" to the point where you can create an unsafe situation.

For a light safe trigger, at minimum you need:

An ultralight trigger with adequate pre-travel and also adequate overtravel

Proper frame pin hole locations

Straight hammer and sear pins of the correct diameter/hardness

Sear/hammer spring with appropriate poundages and leaf lengths

hard sear of proper geometry and length

hammer hooks of proper height and geometry

A hammer that doesn't overcock to a great degree, minimizing the

Disconnector of suitable shape/length

Negatively change any one of those variables and you can create hammer follow.

[Steven Cline]

I find it interesting that people with no proof what others to prove them wrong, instead of proving they are correct... anyways:

Did you read all the posts? Are you saying that I don't have any proof? Or that I didn't have any experience?

To make it clear (and to restate it)... I have dropped the slide and damaged the sear using the test that I outlined. Read the entire thread.

And maybe it is not clear. If you take a 2.5 lb trigger and do what I outlined it is going to pean the sear's face. This does not necessarily mean that it will follow. As I noted above, when I did my test the hammer did not follow.

What it will do is turn your 2.5 lb crisp trigger to a 5-10+ pound trigger with a crappy break.

The purpose of using the heavier springs is to simulate extended abuse in a smaller amount of time.

If you use your stock springs you will eventually damage the face but it will take longer.

Frankly, by using the springs that you have (depending on the poundage) you may not be meeting my "challenge."

If you are confident it won't damage it... use the heavier springs as I specified. Measure the poundage at the start (without the heavier springs) and note how well it breaks.

Then after you slingshot the slide 20-30 times with the heavier springs... reinstall the original springs and measure the poundage and again note how well it breaks.

Again... this is with a gun with a good trigger job. 3.5lbs or less.

If you start with a heavy crappy trigger the difference would be slight. IMHO it doesn't really matter if you drop the slide on a military/mil-spec gun. They have a junky trigger to begin with.

I read all previous posts.

You have not provided any proof, no real proof, anecdotal evidence is not proof, it's a form of argument. "I did this one thing, and this other thing happened," is not proof, it's an argument. The first thing doesn't prove the second thing is always the result or that the first thing is the sole cause of the second thing.

On another point, "Joe Muckitymuck said it will," is not prove either. It's testimony that Joe Muckitymuck said something, not that what Joe Muckitymuck said is actually true.

I'm not stuck on the hammer following, I'm stuck on lack of proof.

Frankly I don't care that something happened to you, it's not proof. It's an event.

Define "extended abuse?" (will 500 slide drops suffice? 1000? 2000? 10,000?) Amoungst all this slide dropping and shooting, how does one isolate the slide drop on an empty champer from the 10 - 20 times more frequent slide drop on a loaded champer? If I shoot a match with 5 stages and 120 round count the slide drops on a loaded 120 times to my 5 drops on an empty chamber. That's a 24 to 1 ratio. If I drop the slide 100 times during dry fire practice during the week, it's still basically 1 for 1. Which caused the damage?

Here's the video:

500+ drops on an empty trigger, no felt difference in my trigger pull. Though I don't have the tool to actually measure the pull. I'll visit San Antonio gunsmith Steve Cline tomorrow if he is available and mesure and ask his opinion on the condition of the internal parts.

Edited July 26, 2009 by PhoneCop

[Steven Cline]

if the trigger is not held back, it will bounce against the disconecter/sear when the slide is dropped.

Great point.

Very interesting, indeed.

In the video I posted with the 500 slide drops I did not hold the trigger back as I do during dry fire and practice reset.

Apparentlty there is a difference in the way all those odd looking parts work and no damage should occur when holding the trigger back during the extract, eject and load because of the trigger held back?

What difference does that rim thickness make and why?

Edited July 26, 2009 by PhoneCop

[Religious Shooter]

Awesome. What lb trigger does your gun have when it started and what does it have now?

[CSEMARTIN]

phonecop,

What do you mean by rim thickness?

[Steven Cline]

phonecop,

What do you mean by rim thickness?

Here's where my mind was at, tell me if I was wrong.

The position being stated is that dropping a slide on an empty chamber is damaging to one of or several parts of the 1911. This same damage is not stated to occur when the slide chambers a cartridge. I presumed the difference between damage and no damage was the some part of the cartridge present when loaded into the chamber which is not present when the chamber is empty. The rim is about 1.3mm thick as far as I can tell with my calipers.

My question was directed at that presumption; why would the presence of the bullet make a difference between damage and no damage?

I suppose that it could be argued that the loss energy from picking up the round and chambering it, but that would seem to mean that damage is still inevitable, just requiring a greater number of chamberings.

Is my question clearer now?

At the echeleon above reality I've only asking (much like the OP):

1- Is there scientific study which proves dropping the slide on an empty trigger causes damage?

2- If not (which is FINE if there is not), can some explain why the damage occurs with an empty chamber which can't happen when the chamber is loaded?

I'd just prefer not blindly accept, " 'cause I said," or " 'cause so-in-so said, and they know all."

I believe there is someone who can answer either question one with a, "yes," or question 2 with some science.

That will satisfy me.

Thanks.

Edited July 26, 2009 by PhoneCop

[Steven Cline]

Awesome. What lb trigger does your gun have when it started and what does it have now?

'bout 3.0-3.5# per Steve Cline the San Antonio trigger smith who did the work on it.

I will endeavor to visit him tomorrow and let him inspect the trigger and measure it all.

I will honestly report his opinon. I've been wrong before and I'll wrong again, and it ain't no skin off my teeth because I haven't stuck my johnson in a paper shredder claiming it's titanium.

Some people (not just here, I'm discussing this on other forums as well) act like I'm pissing on John Browning's grave or calling Leatham a sandbagger, I'm just looking for some facts.

Don't take it personal, it's not. Your answers haven't been satisfactory. If you wanna call that my issue, let it be my issue. Lombardo's answers contradict your assertions and are specific enough for me to go to my diagrams and animations and smith and ask if it's correct or for someone else to say why he is wrong.

Your answer has been essentially, but not specifically, "because I said or because I say all the best smiths say." You have specificallly argued that you damaged a gun from dropping the slide on an empty chamber. I've dropped the slide on an empty chamber over 500 times and did not replicate the damage you experienced. The core of scientific testing is repeatability. Neither of our experiences is science. But I endeavored to repeat your experience and could not repeat it. Others testify to my experience with hundreds of slide drops on empty with no damage. That clearly calls into question the validity of your assertion.

But, if you say, "test it, it WILL," I'm the guy who will test it (within reason). I can't perfectly duplicate your criteria, but I gave a it great shot. 500 is a lot of drops. If it doesn't met your criteria, then fine, sorry I can't satisfy you. I think the rest reading this thread will say, "hmmm, 500 seems to have given the gun plenty of opportunity to do what was alleged WILL happen."

I'm not accusing your wife of chearing on you or anything else that ought to get your dander up.

I'm looking for some proof, do you have any, please?

Edited July 26, 2009 by PhoneCop

[Flexmoney]

I lot of apples and oranges.

This gun has been around for a century. Everybody and his brother has made guns and parts. They are made of various metals, by various methods, and in various countries around the world.

We can see +5lb triggers with > 0.025 engagement surface. And, triggers under 2lb with 0.018...0.016 engagement.

We might see soft metal, mis-aligned frame holes, poor barrel fitting...etc.

Lots of variables to take into consideration.

[Religious Shooter]

Your answer has been essentially, but not specifically, "because I said or because I say all the best smiths say." You have specificallly argued that you damaged a gun from dropping the slide on an empty chamber. I've dropped the slide on an empty chamber over 500 times and did not replicate the damage you experienced. The core of scientific testing is repeatability. Neither of our experiences is science. But I endeavored to repeat your experience and could not repeat it. Others testify to my experience with hundreds of slide drops on empty with no damage. That clearly calls into question the validity of your assertion.

...

But, if you say, "test it, it WILL," I'm the guy who will test it (within reason). I can't perfectly duplicate your criteria, but I gave a it great shot. 500 is a lot of drops. If it doesn't met your criteria, then fine, sorry I can't satisfy you. I think the rest reading this thread will say, "hmmm, 500 seems to have given the gun plenty of opportunity to do what was alleged WILL happen."

Since you didn't replicate what I did, don't you think it would be probable that you won't get the same results given you didn't do what I did?

Did you take a measurement of the sear's face (or even look at it) before you did the test? Did you take a measurement of the trigger pull before the test?

What did I "alleged WILL happen?"

[gm iprod]

I don't like seeing 1911's that have been tuned being slammed home. I have sen them drop to half cock.

The main thing is that guys like Doug Keonig, Bruce Piatt and other s don't like it. They make money out of shooting guns, they have won world championships, numerous Chavy Team Challenges, Bianchi Cups etc etc etc.

If it is good enough for them it is good enough for me.

When I win all they have I will come up with my own theory. Until then this works for me.

I know that my car has airbags that will save my arse when it all comes undone. I don't test them regularly by running my car into a wall.

[Anthony Lombardo]

I am not suggesting anyone drop the slide on anyone else's gun. They may have an improperly fit or dangerously worn action that exhibits hammer follow from slide lock. I would never drop the slide on someone else's piece for fear of follow and a potential AD.

I once had a great friend whose carry gun was a worked over series 80 Colt. The "gunsmith" who built the gun came from a bullseye background and the hammer hooks were short. The gun followed every time you dropped the slide.

If he had never checked it , how would he know? Would that be OK on anyones carry gun??????????????

When ever I get a NEW 1911, custom or otherwise I drop the slide numerous times to make sure it is safe. There are too many parts variables/home gunsmiths out there to take any chances.

I don't sit around all day dropping the slides on my pistols but I don't wince when it happens.

[mike cyrwus]

Anthony, I would add to your list of necessary components you posted up there, the requirement of a proper length hammer strut.

Good list.

[Steven Cline]

My crude attempt at measuring the trigger weight lacking proper tools.

I called Steve, left a VM message.

[Steven Cline]

Since you didn't replicate what I did, don't you think it would be probable that you won't get the same results given you didn't do what I did?

I did not damage the trigger, that is the prime difference and failure to replicate. If you wanna argue that 500 drops with a normal weight spring isn't the same, have fun, it was the best I could do. I believe it's as extreme an example as the one you did

Did you take a measurement of the sear's face (or even look at it) before you did the test?

I inspect the sear face for obvious damage evertime I clean it, which I did just before this test. I did not note damage, but I don't claim the ability to speak as an expert on this.

Did you take a measurement of the trigger pull before the test?

No, I did not, but then again, you didn't specify I had too, your allegation was that the change in trigger would be dramatic, anywhere from twice to four times the required pressuer and a crappy break. That did not manifest.

I will ask the man who did my trigger job to inspect the trigger and tell me what he observed. IF there is peaning, I will report that. I will report what he observes. I will tell you the trigger is still much finer than the trigger on my wife's Kimber Custom II (on a light-hearted side note, I consider myself a lucky man to have a woman who loves herself a 1911)

What did I "alleged WILL happen?"

What you said, "Several years ago I took it to an extreme to see for myself. I used an extra power hammer spring, extra power recoil spring and dropped the slide on an empty chamber (slingshotted the slide) about 20+ times (this was 10+ years ago and I don't remember the exact #.)"

I don't have extra power springs, I have numbers. You did some realtively low number of slingshots. I attempted to compensate for the lack of weight with repetition. If you did it 50 times I did it 10 times that amount. I don't know how much increasing the weight of those springs relates to repetition, but am I really way of base for believing that at least ten times the repetition (if not 25 times the repetition) should have manifested the damage you predicted.

You also said, "Or better yet, get a $80-150 dollar trigger job and drop the slide on an empty chamber multiple times. See how long it lasts for you." I have one of those trigger jobs, and I have no evidence that the trigger job was damaged with 500 slide drops. I think that qualifies for "multiple."

You further said, "If you are confident that it doesn't, put an extra power hammer spring and an extra power recoil spring and sling shot the slide a 30-100 times on an empty chamber. Then go practice with it.

Video tape it so we can see that I'm FOS. This is with a <2 lb trigger job. "

Which I did as best I can given the lack of the different springs. It's still under 2.5 lbs. I'll give you the report of the man who did the trigger job, you'll just have to weight for it. But, your addition of heavy weight springs was to mimick... repetition:

"The purpose of using the heavier springs is to simulate extended abuse in a smaller amount of time."

This what you said, will, happen:

"If you take a 2.5 lb trigger and do what I outlined it is going to pean the sear's face. This does not necessarily mean that it will follow. As I noted above, when I did my test the hammer did not follow.

What it will do is turn your 2.5 lb crisp trigger to a 5-10+ pound trigger with a crappy break."

It did not turn my nice light crisp something about 2.5 # trigger into a crappy breaking 5-10# trigger. Don't you dare question my integrity on this. I have been nothing but 100% honest about what I did and what the results are.

And, BTW, if I drug any anger over from another forum where I've been seeking the same proof, I appologize. In re-reading your posts I see them worded differently with a different tone than I recall initially interprepting. For that I am sorry.

Edited July 27, 2009 by PhoneCop

[larry cazes]

Beginning to feel like GT or 1911forum around here......

[Anthony Lombardo]

Beginning to feel like GT or 1911forum around here......

You mean the place where people spout off unsubstantiated stuff and hearsay all the time?

[Nik Habicht]

That's it --- we're done here....