Practicing Going Faster

[CHA-LEE]

In IPSC, depending on the target difficulty, you want shoot the first shot on a target as soon as the sights are either coming into or stopped in the A box. For the second shot, you need to shoot as soon as the sights come back into the top part of the A box for an easier shot, and as soon as they stop in the A box for a harder shot. You need to be seeing a lot to do that.

be

[xsniper]

Would it be a similar approach to running, biking, swimming, or lifting weights? If you practice faster (or heavier), then that soon becomes your "norm"?

[Lee King]

It has been my experience there is a cycle of advancement. Your first matches you miss a lot and are generally jacked up with the timer goes off. Then you get comfortable and start hitting everything. Then you realize you have the highest points but the slowest time. So you add dry firing with a timer and your times sky rocket but you add the misses and the points fall off. You go back to fundamentals and the time stays the same but the points come back up. Out comes the timer again and you get faster but the points fall off and you start taking misses again.

In the past the using a timer during dry fire kind of kick started my brain and eyes as to what I COULD do. The first time through one of Steve Anderson's drills with a par time at his suggested start par I thought "Holy Crap that is fast". But that quickly changed. My problem now when I use the timer is I get fixated on beating the par and not so much the front sights etc. So now I'm in the "see what you need to see" phase. I'm also learning there is a lot to shooting a stage fast that isn't "shooting" per se. Movement. Planning. Things like having the gun up so you don't waste that time when you come into a position. But I'm still a B shooter and have a lot to learn.

[wkj4567]

Would it be a similar approach to running, biking, swimming, or lifting weights? If you practice faster (or heavier), then that soon becomes your "norm"?

I think so but you have to remember you have to start somewhere and have to train towards specific goals. If you want to train for a marathon, you build a base of mileage and you can add some speed work into your training to get better overall. In weight lifting, you start with what you can lift and build up, it's useless to try and lift what someone else can lift just like it's useless to try and shoot as fast as someone else. You have to remember to stay within yourself and your abilities, hard work and training in any of these sports/hobbies will payoff.

[Papa Joe]

Perfect example for me. I shot 99-12 last week and wanted all "A's". Everyone tells you to get your points. Got it and the slower time. The guy I shot with ran faster, to compare. We both shoot at the same level. He had 4-C's and beat me.

When I dry fire, I run as hard as I can and get a workout. It has helped in repetitive motion at matches, but I need to still find that median.

[gb32]

Interesting topic and one that I've put a lot of thought into lately. I attended a class earlier this year with Max and Travis and asked them about their mindset for practice vs. matches. Max said that his goal for a match was 90-95% points. He knows his times will be competitive and maintaining that level of accuracy almost guarantees that he will not have a bad stage. Travis really put this on display at the Nationals last year, winning the match with one stage win. However in practice their goal is always to push. Not to the point of throwing Mikes all over the place but working executing everything faster.

I'm fortunate to shoot with several talented shooters at my local matches. Chris Tilley, TJ and several other GMs. I approach these matches like they are a National Championship. Do I shoot at my practice pace? No, 90-95% of points at my natural speed. I don't want to shoot a stage at any match at a pace that I couldn't do on demand. Do I shoot Mikes in practice? Sure, shot some today. I found out what my current limits were for shooting a particular drill. I turned up my vision, saw more and got my Alphas. The refinement never ends.

Great topic btw.

[MemphisMechanic]

blah blah blah blah SEE THE SIGHTS blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah VISION blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah KNOWING blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah WATCH THE SIGHTS LIFT blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ... blah blah blah blah FOCUS ON THE STOP PLATE blah blah blah blah blah .

Or in other words, instead of pushing or not pushing, train yourself to see.

be

You and your total obsession with vision. It's always "see this!" and "see that!" ... Sometimes us lower-level shooters just want to point the gun vaguely in the direction of each target in turn, and slap the trigger twice.

Why are you always trying to get us to see where the gun is pointed during that process?

:devil:

Edited July 2, 2009 by MemphisMechanic

[Flexmoney]

Would it be a similar approach to running, biking, swimming, or lifting weights? If you practice faster (or heavier), then that soon becomes your "norm"?

But, are you practicing the right stuff??

You can get your trigger finger to go faster (by being less tense).

You can work your grip and stance.

But, what really drives the progress we are looking for? We really improve when we become aware of what is going on. That comes from our senses...mostly vision. And, it comes from embracing the mindset that sets that all up.

[Xfactor]

...I have come to find out the trick to shooting faster... see faster, call shots faster, move efficiently.

I still like to hit the wall, as that is where I learn if I am seeing faster, calling faster and moving efficiently...

My thoughts exactly...

Push, don't push, fast, slow, shoot within your ability... forget all those confusing concepts. And train yourself, continuously in practice and matches - to shoot as soon as you know you will score a maximum value hit...

That sums it up perfectly for me!

[Silver_Surfer]

I belive #2 should be told to the new shooters and #1 should start once the shooter starts to progress. I always see very new shooters(Still unsafe not knowing the basics) tring to shoot like the upper class shooters. By explaining #1 the newbies tend to hang around longer than the ones who hose everything, get fedup, leave and nevercome back.

[SA Friday]

I understand what BE and Flex etc are saying. So, here's maybe a different way of asking/saying what I'm getting at. How does the mind and eyes become faster at identifying the moment you should break the shot? I am not a big believer in faith, that it just comes. Practicing to see faster, more efficient (pick one, they are synonymous here IMO), how? There has to be a way/reason that the processing gets faster and possibly even a way to manipulate progress in this area, and I think that is the part that gets lost in some of the repeated mantra. Why does ones seeing become more efficient, and how can a shooter train themselves to see more efficient/faster?

[Lee King]

I always think it's a matter of focus. As fundamentals become 2nd nature you allow yourself to focus more on the important things. You're not "thinking" about grip, stance, transition.. you just DO it. Your brain can then pick up more of the focused information. Like the conscious conduit to your brain is of a fixed size. Fundamentals eventually move from the "conscious conduit" to the subconscious allowing denser information flow into the conscious conduit. If that makes sense.

[SA Friday]

I always think it's a matter of focus. As fundamentals become 2nd nature you allow yourself to focus more on the important things. You're not "thinking" about grip, stance, transition.. you just DO it. Your brain can then pick up more of the focused information. Like the conscious conduit to your brain is of a fixed size. Fundamentals eventually move from the "conscious conduit" to the subconscious allowing denser information flow into the conscious conduit. If that makes sense.

Yes, it does, but I know a lot of good B shooters whose fundamentals are very solid but cannot get out of the speed they are shooting matches at. "Stuck in B". Why? I know they are not thinking about fundamentals while shooting. Why is their vision not getting faster/efficient when they are solid fundamentally? This is where my premise comes from. If it 'just happens' then it would happen with every shooter.

[eerw]

How a shooter gets from being stuck in a class to moving up is a combination of different things.

there are a couple of threads on "Flow" which are pretty good on performing at a high level.

but when I think of seeing faster..it is literally seeing more in a shorter amount of time. and just as you exercise and practice to be physically stronger your eyes are just muscles too. some people have incredible vision and are able to move their eyes physically faster and have the ability to change focus points very fast. to be able to do that and have your brain process that fast is what I think it takes to see faster.

with iron sights..this is just freakin critical. to be able to change focus points from sight to target and to move your eyes from target to target.

try snapping your eyes from point to point and from near to far and back again repeatedly as fast as you can for say thirty seconds and see how much strain you feel in your eyes. you might be amazed.

I actually do this couple of times a day for short periods of time in meetings at work, during commercials while watching TV, etc.

does it help? I think so. my ability to see the sights, call shots is steadily improving.

[BritinUSA]

Why is their vision not getting faster/efficient when they are solid fundamentally?

Because they don't want it to.

Our movements, vision, thinking, etc. are controlled by thought processes. Some processes are conscious and others are sub-conscious. All brains have the capability to learn, stroke victims are able to re-learn how to use their bodies after parts of their brain have died. Everyone has this capability. The brain is designed to learn, it starts before birth, this is how newborns can recognise the sound of their mother's voice.

If someone does not improve on an action, technique or process it is because they do not want to.

[eerw]

Why is their vision not getting faster/efficient when they are solid fundamentally?

Because they don't want it to.

If someone does not improve on an action, technique or process it is because they do not want to.

good point..desire, willingness and determination account for a lot.

[Lee King]

Trust me I'm stuck in "B". I'm learning there are a lot of "other" things to shooting too. Movement. Game plan. Sometimes my mental state affects how I shoot. It's weird, I actually shoot my best when I have "given up" on a match. I threw a M on the very first stage at a local last month and decided I was out of it and to just to shoot for fun. Some weird mental thing happened with that (which I haven't been able to replicate btw) and I ended up with my first HOA. I can't tell you what specifically changed when I "gave up". I'm sure in the end it was "seeing faster". But I was so unfocused on "winning" it was a complete shock that I did. I see it as all part of the "other stuff".

Goes back to the cycle. I work on some stuff and improve in this area. Then other stuff falls off. Then I work on that and it gets better. Ultimately I think I improve overall WHEN I let my brain and ego get out of the way. Maybe.

[Xfactor]

...just as you exercise and practice to be physically stronger your eyes are just muscles too. some...try snapping your eyes from point to point and from near to far and back again repeatedly as fast as you can for say thirty seconds...

I actually do this couple of times a day for short periods of time in meetings at work...

Great advice. I try to do this too when I think of it... sometimes from license plate to license plate while driving on the highway.

But I can't help but laugh at the thought of the perplexed looks I would get from coworkers in meetings who happened to notice my eyes darting erratically around the room.

[CHA-LEE]

Lee King> As long as you keep calling yourself a "B" Class shooter or enforcing that you are "Stuck" in B Class, you will be. This is along the lines of "You are what you eat" but more importantly, "You are what you think you are". If you think of yourself as being stuck in B class then you will fulfill that expectation.

Thread drift concluded........ Back to the normal program

[SA Friday]

How a shooter gets from being stuck in a class to moving up is a combination of different things.

there are a couple of threads on "Flow" which are pretty good on performing at a high level.

but when I think of seeing faster..it is literally seeing more in a shorter amount of time. and just as you exercise and practice to be physically stronger your eyes are just muscles too. some people have incredible vision and are able to move their eyes physically faster and have the ability to change focus points very fast. to be able to do that and have your brain process that fast is what I think it takes to see faster.

with iron sights..this is just freakin critical. to be able to change focus points from sight to target and to move your eyes from target to target.

try snapping your eyes from point to point and from near to far and back again repeatedly as fast as you can for say thirty seconds and see how much strain you feel in your eyes. you might be amazed.

I actually do this couple of times a day for short periods of time in meetings at work, during commercials while watching TV, etc.

does it help? I think so. my ability to see the sights, call shots is steadily improving.

OK, I get this. This is more like, "pretend you're explaining it to someone educated in the penal system."

I'm not looking for some mystical drill per se (but I like the ideas on exercising the eyes, something to encompass into dry firing), but just trying to understand the process. This, so far is the best explanation I've found so far that makes sense to me.

As for other things keeping people back, I agree with you and Paul to a certain degree. I think the ability to see faster, shoot faster, can cause the unwillingness to want to progress as frustration sets in as much as other things that might hold them back. Can taking a different approach to shooting possibly break this frustration for some shooters? I think so. Is it the wrong path? Not sure, but I know it's helped me.

Good discussion. I getting stuff out of this.

[CHA-LEE]

Is it really that hard of a concept to understand that in order to take any skill to the next level you need to push yourself beyond your current skill level? Peoples perceived “Limits” are nothing more than what their current experience is of a given limit. Expand your experience comfort zone into uncharted territory in search of new limits. What we think are hard physical limitations are more often self imposed mental limitations. Understanding that YOU are the number one road block to just about any performance based goal is a HUGE step forward in breaking through your road blocks.

A good example of this would be the simple process of shooting fast. When I first started shooting I would watch experienced shooters shoot at a .20 - .30 sec shot split pace. I thought that this was a huge feat to achieve because every time I tried to shoot fast at all my grip would start to fail and the gun would be flailing all over the place in recoil. Instantly in my mind the comment was “There is no way someone can control the gun while shooting that fast”, simply because I couldn’t do it at the time. After a ton of practice and learning, I can now shoot very comfortably in the sub .20 sec split range. In a recent practice session I wanted to explore how fast is too fast and was able to get sub .10 sec splits to the point where the shot timer wasn’t picking up the individual shots any more. This is where it dawned on me that the shot timer its self is a form of limitation. If I can perform two controlled shots faster than the timer can pick up then my new perceived limitation to shooting fast is the mechanical limit of the gun its self to be able to cycle.

I am not saying that I will need to shoot match stages using a sub .10 sec shot split pace or feel like I need to shoot that fast to be successful. The point I am trying to make is how perceived limitations can change fairly easy by simply opening up to experience uncharted territory. Some times this can be done on your own. Other times you need someone else to put their foot in your ass to push you past the threshold. One thing for sure though is that once you think you have mastered ANY skill and can stop trying to learn or experience new levels of performing it, that’s when you start getting stuck. Once you say in your mind “yep, that’s good enough” you are setting an artificial limitation. Never stop fighting to do things better, faster, or more efficiently. At least until you run out of primers

[rvb]

Why does ones seeing become more efficient, and how can a shooter train themselves to see more efficient/faster?

I like to step out of my comfort zone. I often push myself just to see what I can see; to learn to observe more in less time... which is really just observing more.

Sometimes I go through the motions as fast as I can without regard to As (or hits!). Im usually able to learn what is holding me back, work on it, and then go for As.

SA, Here is my current approach. I might look back on this in a couple years and think what a dolt I was....

Perhaps I didn't say what I intended to very well. But there is more to observe than the FS/dot. Sometimes I just want to observe "more;" to observe something different than the norm. It's not necessarily that I'm seeing "faster," but trying to train myself to see more of "everything" in that time.

A different way to word it... I feel I have learned to be aware of my FS/dot. I'm happy with the progress of my shot calling/transitions/etc. Sometimes in practice I try to place my focus elsewhere, to open my awareness to new and limiting things that are happening in my performance.

My goal is to learn to be aware of more things, then I can identify my weaknesses. Then I can learn where my focus needs to be while performing various actions, and hopefully they will eventually blend so that I can always be aware of these things...

In a nutshell, basically trying to identify anything that is not efficient as it could be. I've struggled with the same question you pose... how do I get from where I'm at now, to truly understanding what what BE and Flex are saying.

This is the path I'm on.... typing this I'm wondering why I have to push myself to see these things. My thought is/was that the biggest weakness show up more obviously, the weaknesses "fall apart" more apparently. But if I was truely aware would I need that crutch? Dammit. Are BE and Flex confusing me (beyond my ability) or did a light just come on as I typed.

I love this stuff.

-rvb

Edited July 2, 2009 by rvb

[rvb]

Peoples perceived “Limits” are nothing more than what their current experience is of a given limit. Expand your experience comfort zone into uncharted territory in search of new limits. What we think are hard physical limitations are more often self imposed mental limitations. Understanding that YOU are the number one road block to just about any performance based goal is a HUGE step forward in breaking through your road blocks.

very much agree!

-rvb

[Lee King]

Lee King> As long as you keep calling yourself a "B" Class shooter or enforcing that you are "Stuck" in B Class, you will be. This is along the lines of "You are what you eat" but more importantly, "You are what you think you are". If you think of yourself as being stuck in B class then you will fulfill that expectation.

Thread drift concluded........ Back to the normal program

I was being tongue in cheek...

[eerw]

It's weird, I actually shoot my best when I have "given up" on a match. I threw a M on the very first stage at a local last month and decided I was out of it and to just to shoot for fun. Some weird mental thing happened with that (which I haven't been able to replicate btw) and I ended up with my first HOA. I can't tell you what specifically changed when I "gave up". I'm sure in the end it was "seeing faster". But I was so unfocused on "winning" it was a complete shock that I did. I see it as all part of the "other stuff".

that's a pretty cool mental state..the thoughts of winning creep trick your mind into trying..which really begins to clutch things up. there are few people that can actually put everything consciously into a higher gear. far more crash when they begin to try.

Edited July 2, 2009 by eerw