New shooter didn't safely rack the slide........

[UltraTen]

I was ROing a local match last Saturday and found myself in a situation I'm not sure I handled right.

A "new to the sport" female (gender doesn't really matter) shooter approached the line.

Went through the normal do you understand the course of fire.............

At the line I gave the command to load and make ready.

The shooter drew the gun and a mag and loaded up.

Before I realized what she was doing, she put the thumb of her weak hand through the front of the trigger guard and rack the slide.

I was totally stunned at what I just witnessed, I couldn't stop her fast enough!!

I then had her holster the weapon and instructed her that is not acceptable.

She immediately became frustrated and informed me that she has a weak left hand and cannot rack the slide with it.

I allowed her to shoot the stage.

Now if she was a seasoned shooter I would have DQ her in a heartbeat!!

Do you guys think that I did the right thing??

Is there anything that allows something like this if a shooter has a handicap??

I'd really hate to turn a shooter away, but safety has to come first..

I could not imagine what could have happened if her strong hand slipped off the slide in mid rack!

[Seth]

If that was her LAMR, then what was her shooting and reloads going to look like? I think the decision to DQ would've been VERY sound. Someone could get killed with unacceptable gun handling.

[Greg Bell]

What does your Match Director and club leadership have to say about it? It sounds like she needs some coaching on techniques or possibly a different firearm to accommodate her, as opposed to compromising a basic safety rule.

I've SO'd a right handed guy who had very very limited use of of his left arm. He managed to deal with it safely, never a muzzle or finger issue so it can be done.

Pssst .....

A revolver is a good solution for this.

[Steve J]

If she can't develop the strength or can't find an acceptable pistol that she is strong enough to handle safely and correctly then she has no business on the range. I probably would have done the same thing you did for what it's worth. DQ after corrective training.

Some people come to matches with absolutely no gun handling or shooting skills when they really should be going to a public firing line to learn how to shoot instead.

Sunday before last I had a giant of a man (right handed) on LAMR draw the pistol from his holster, grab the slide with his left hand with the muzzle pointing squarely on the 180 to the right. Then he inserted the magazine with his right hand and awkwardly racked a round in the chamber by pulling the frame forward with his right hand. Where in the world would anyone come up with that method. A lengthy coaching session followed and he was fine for the rest of the match.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Steve J

[Filishooter]

Safety first...so DQ IMHO.

Some shooters need to learn the hard way. By her getting frustrated/defensive she knows it wasn't the right thing to do and did it anyways. If she can't LaMR safely then she needs to find a way and/or let the SO know her procedure on LaMR and let him decide to let her proceed or not. If I was the SO and she asked me if she could rack the slide that way I would offer to rack it for her, but I wouldn't let her do it in that manor.

If she has a medical "condition" then maybe talk to the MD and see if equipment modifications like a slide racker would be allowed.

[Wandering Man]

My wife had problems at the local SASS shoot a couple of weekends ago. She's not really a new shooter, but still somewhat inexperienced.

She was loading a shotshell into our Win '97 shotgun. The shell went in funny, and she was bobbing the gun around a bit to get it settled in right. As she slammed the pump shut, the gun went off and hit the dirt less than five feet downrange. She had left her finger on the trigger as she worked the pump.

The RO sent her immediately to the unloading table. Neither of us (wife and I) knew the rule for this type of event and were confused about what was happening. Others started talking about whether it was a stage DQ or a match DQ. Since I didn't know what to tell her, I approached the RO. I think he confused my confusion with anger. I wasn't. I just wanted to know what to tell her.

He made the decision to poll the rest of the group. They all generously told him to let her continue in the match. He offered to let her reshoot the stage, which she declined. She took a stage DQ.

In retrospect, he should have given her the match DQ. By that time she was pretty shaken up anyway. She finished the last stage, but with a lot of unnecessary nervousness. Speaking as the husband, it would have been embarrassing, but OK to tell us she was disqualified.

The local shoots are where we learn to get better. And we need to learn it in a safe environment. If we screw up and risk the safety of others, we need to be told. We also need lots of attention afterwards, though. Explanation, demonstration, etc. is welcome. There are just some things you don't learn at the firing line by yourself.

WM

[Flexmoney]

I never want to compromise the safety of all the other shooters to keep one shooter happy, nor risk putting the shooting sports in a bad light.

As a kid, I wasn't allowed to shoot the auto guns until I could proper rack them.

That might be hard, but it is necessary and responsible.

What can be done is to improve the situation.

On my girlfriend's guns, I have installed a light recoil spring. And, I have taught her that she should lock-out her elbows...stiff arm (joint lock is stronger). Then, when she is racking, she is able to use stronger muscles to do so (shoulders, back, torso) and she is in a position of better leverage.

[Graham Smith]

This is just me, but if she had a problem racking a slide on the line, what was she planning to do if she had a stovepipe while shooting?

And I really hate to bring this up, but who did her safety checkout before she shot this match (which I am assuming was her first)? How could this issue not have come up at that time?

All in all, this seems to be a case of a person who was woefully unprepared to shoot a match.

[rr4406pak]

Doesn't matter if she gets frustrated. You do it correctly and you do it safely or you go home...

[UltraTen]

What does your Match Director and club leadership have to say about it? It sounds like she needs some coaching on techniques or possibly a different firearm to accommodate her, as opposed to compromising a basic safety rule.

I've SO'd a right handed guy who had very very limited use of of his left arm. He managed to deal with it safely, never a muzzle or finger issue so it can be done.

The MD backed my decision to let her shoot.

After the match we discussed it and both agreed that she should have been DQ'd.

I just got off the phone with the club director, he said he would back us completely for any type of safety infractions.

The board will not tolerate any potential safety issues and has left final decisions up to myself and the MD.

We're going to try to work with her if she shows up next month.

If nothing can be done then we'll have no choice but to send her home.

[dqshooter]

Doesn't matter if she gets frustrated. You do it correctly and you do it safely or you go home...

I do not think this specific instance (1 time) is a DQ offense. Now after some coaching and assistanse which sometimes new shooters do need, she does it again she's done. Sounds to me if she needs to rack the silde while holding the gun in her weak hand she should be able to do this safely. If she cannot operate the gun safely, she should not be on the range. I do not mean to sound harsh but from a RO standpoint, you are closest to the shooter and in the most danger. Its never fun to find yourself staring down the business end of a muzzle.

[Steve J]

There are a couple of votes here for an immediate DQ. Let's review. New, inexperienced shooters loads with a finger in the trigger guard. There was no AD. Had there been an AD, then yes - immediate DQ. If she does the same thing again after being warned not to, then yes - DQ. But, for a first time finger in the trigger guard infraction? That's not a mandatory DQ in either of the practical shooting sports.

[CenTX]

I am having trouble picturing exactly what she was doing. However, a lot of the unsafe gunhandling I see is a botched replication of a technique that they have seen or read about somewhere.

This shooter's technique or lack of same, may have been based on seeing someone do a "press check" as was taught by Jeff Cooper and others in the late 70s early 80s. It was also more common when most 1911s did not have full lenghth guiderods. The shooter puts the pad of their weak hand thumb against the inside of the trigger guard and the weak hand index finger is place on the recoil spring cap, underneath the barrell, then with a little pressure the slide is pressed back with the index finger enough to see that there was a round in the chamber. Many matches were run with a hot range. This and other techniques were modified/discontinued/no longer taught for safety reasons.

[kgunz11]

There are a couple of votes here for an immediate DQ. Let's review. New, inexperienced shooters loads with a finger in the trigger guard. There was no AD. Had there been an AD, then yes - immediate DQ. If she does the same thing again after being warned not to, then yes - DQ. But, for a first time finger in the trigger guard infraction? That's not a mandatory DQ in either of the practical shooting sports.

I'm sorry Sir, I disagree with you.

My wife is also a shooter, but I am not going to let her jeopardize the safety of others so she can play too. She does it safely and correctly, or she doesn't shoot. As her husband I feel it is my obligation.

Back to my disagreement. You see the part you wrote that I highlighted? I disagree, 1st time, 3rd time, 50th time, in USPSA that is a DQ. Look in your USPSA rule book under 10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling. It is backed up by rule:

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading,

reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make

Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking

lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

It's a straight forward DQ in the rule book. I think the exception there is pretty specific to a revolver shooter, but this isn't a USPSA forum so I'll let you IDPA guys comment on rather or not it is a DQ'able offense there.

[uscbigdawg]

Well...being that the incident is past and the club has ruled on what to do in the future with regards to safety, I would like to add that the shooter is contacted and a training opportunity provided. Take the opportunity to invite her to the range, to your house or go to hers for the explicit purposes of understanding if it's a physical strength issue or an ergonomic (i.e. Flex's solution) issue. Either way, a pro-active approach at this point might retain someone that might otherwise feel chased away come next month's match.

Rich

ETA: Bobby - the exception is for say a CZ SP-01 where it doesn't have a decocker. You lower the hammer by holding it and pulling the trigger.

Edited June 15, 2009 by uscbigdawg

[Steve J]

There are a couple of votes here for an immediate DQ. Let's review. New, inexperienced shooters loads with a finger in the trigger guard. There was no AD. Had there been an AD, then yes - immediate DQ. If she does the same thing again after being warned not to, then yes - DQ. But, for a first time finger in the trigger guard infraction? That's not a mandatory DQ in either of the practical shooting sports.

I'm sorry Sir, I disagree with you.

My wife is also a shooter, but I am not going to let her jeopardize the safety of others so she can play too. She does it safely and correctly, or she doesn't shoot. As her husband I feel it is my obligation.

Back to my disagreement. You see the part you wrote that I highlighted? I disagree, 1st time, 3rd time, 50th time, in USPSA that is a DQ. Look in your USPSA rule book under 10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling. It is backed up by rule:

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading,

reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make

Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking

lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

It's a straight forward DQ in the rule book. I think the exception there is pretty specific to a revolver shooter, but this isn't a USPSA forum so I'll let you IDPA guys comment on rather or not it is a DQ'able offense there.

Thanks for the reference. IDPA is a little less dogmatic but an immediate DQ is possible, but not mandatory.

E. Dangerous or repeated “finger in trigger guard” violations

during loading, unloading, reloading, drawing, holstering,

remedial action.

[Pittbug]

Thanks for posting this. I just started doing new shooter briefings and realized after reading this that it's probably a good idea to demonstrate the acceptable movements for drawing, LAMR and reloading. Better to nip it in the bud in the safe area than have to deal with bad gun handling on the line with live ammo.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Pittbug

[kaiserb]

If she can't develop the strength or can't find an acceptable pistol that she is strong enough to handle safely and correctly then she has no business on the range. I probably would have done the same thing you did for what it's worth. DQ after corrective training.

Some people come to matches with absolutely no gun handling or shooting skills when they really should be going to a public firing line to learn how to shoot instead.

+1 on both of those (I would have pulled the person LAMR using the method described. If they could not load safely then they can not shoot... )

Sunday before last I had a giant of a man (right handed) on LAMR draw the pistol from his holster, grab the slide with his left hand with the muzzle pointing squarely on the 180 to the right. Then he inserted the magazine with his right hand and awkwardly racked a round in the chamber by pulling the frame forward with his right hand. Where in the world would anyone come up with that method. A lengthy coaching session followed and he was fine for the rest of the match.

Too much TV...

Edited June 16, 2009 by kaiserb

[GmanCdp]

+1 to what Rich said....take the time to make it right with a new shooter...

[Graham Smith]

Thanks for posting this. I just started doing new shooter briefings and realized after reading this that it's probably a good idea to demonstrate the acceptable movements for drawing, LAMR and reloading.

Apparently not all new shooter briefings are as thorough as the one I went though. There were three shooters and a RO. The RO went though and demonstrated all the procedures. Then each new shooter had to go through a walk through one at a time - load, shoot, mag change, shoot, clear, holster. IOW, the shooters had to demonstrate they knew what they were doing.

[Lee King]

If I DQ'd every new shooter with their finger in the trigger there would be no new shooters. Finger in the trigger is THE most common safety mistake made. It has been my experience RO'ing our local match every new shooter does it once. We discussed it in the RO class and even the instructor admitted this one is the hardest DQ on new shooters. The general concensus was say "FINGER!" as allowed under 8.6.1. Have a discussion about it after and let them know that was their only warning. Next time is DQ. Major matches are a different story. Everyone should know better. Period.

I've had to DQ two new shooters in the last year for obvious DQs (even to them). One never even fired a single shot (drew his gun for a sight picture during the walk through with people downrange ). Neither came back.

[Bones]

"Now if she was a seasoned shooter I would have DQ her in a heartbeat!!"

When did knowledge become a sin and ignorance a virtue?

If the shooter cannot safely handle the gun, by their own admission and demonstration, they need to be stopped. As an RO, it is your job to stop them.

Craig

[Neomet]

What concerned me as I read this was that she wasn't receptive to the instruction of the RO. If she said "Well that is the way I have to do it." what is she going to do at UASC? Might be a kevlar moment. "I'm not strong enough" frankly doesn't cut it. Ms. Neomet is pretty much incapable of safely racking the slide on my XD45 with a major PF spring in it. She either shoots it with minor loads or uses a different pistol.

Hopefully this shooter was just flustered at having made a mistake and some coaching and friendship will bring her safely back to the range.

[Shootingirons45]

I don't buy it that a persons too weak to physically manipulate the slide..UNLESS they have a physical disability. When my oldest son was about 8 I wanted to see if he could manipulate the slide on my 1911. Guess what..he did. Poorly, unsafely, but he did. What's called for here is some remedial education to show the shooter the correct, safe way to manipulate the slide. Ignorance is not a sin, allowing a person to ignorantly continue is. It reflects on us as shooters, RO's and SO's.

[JimmyZip]

This shooter's technique or lack of same, may have been based on seeing someone do a "press check" as was taught by Jeff Cooper and others in the late 70s early 80s. It was also more common when most 1911s did not have full lenghth guiderods. The shooter puts the pad of their weak hand thumb against the inside of the trigger guard and the weak hand index finger is place on the recoil spring cap, underneath the barrell, then with a little pressure the slide is pressed back with the index finger enough to see that there was a round in the chamber. Many matches were run with a hot range. This and other techniques were modified/discontinued/no longer taught for safety reasons.

This is how I used to see many people put a round in the chamber. I used to do this when I was young. Pop asked me where in the &*^% did you learn that? I said I'd seen others doing this at our range. The look I got, followed by the "Well if you want to accidently take off a finger or part of a hand.." lecture convinced me this was not exactly kosher gun handling.

Well...being that the incident is past and the club has ruled on what to do in the future with regards to safety, I would like to add that the shooter is contacted and a training opportunity provided. Take the opportunity to invite her to the range, to your house or go to hers for the explicit purposes of understanding if it's a physical strength issue or an ergonomic (i.e. Flex's solution) issue. Either way, a pro-active approach at this point might retain someone that might otherwise feel chased away come next month's match.

Rich

I like this. This way, if the person doesn't want to learn the right way, you know it up front and can deal accordingly.