Spray_N_Prey Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Ok real quick question, would this be legal to start with an UNLOADED gun sitting on a barrel and your in front of the gun, where you have to back peddel to retrieve gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristotle Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 (edited) Either the gun will be muzzling the peanut gallery, shooter or SO. I don't think it's a good idea. There's also potential for him to 180 on the grab if he's too quick unless you force him to retrieve the gun from "behind" the barrel completely. Most seasoned shooters could pull it off, but not everyone in the field. Edited May 30, 2009 by Aristotle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 I would not be downrange of a gun loaded or not and I wouldn't set up a stage like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maineshootah Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Ok real quick question, would this be legal to start with an UNLOADED gun sitting on a barrel and your in front of the gun, where you have to back peddel to retrieve gun. Why would you do this? Safety reasons aside, this is a shooting sport, not a measure of "can you run backwards". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 (edited) This would seem to be covered under 10.5.5, an instant DQ for unsafe gun handling even if unloaded, since it would be allowing the gun to sweep the competitor during the course of fire if the competitor was in front of the muzzle or had to pass in front of the muzzle. Very bad idea overall...couldn't imagine any RM would approve this COF, unless I'm missing something. If the COF layout required the competitor to start behind the gun and then to move backwards after loading, while maintaining the gun in a safe direction, it would be tricky for inexperienced shooters but within the rulebook. Curtis Edited May 30, 2009 by BayouSlide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spray_N_Prey Posted May 30, 2009 Author Share Posted May 30, 2009 (edited) calm down peepz, I was just proving a point to a fellow shooter about general consencus on here about it not being a safe course of fire. BUT I will say that I do like to put challenges in stages about starting downrange and having to retreat to begin shooting. I know this is a shooting sport, but being able to move safely is part of the game also. I hate when local people bitch about "oh that's not safe having to move backwards". Most local matches i've been to have some kind of backwards movement. It teaches you how to move with your gun safely down range. Edited May 30, 2009 by Spray_N_Prey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walter hornby Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 two ways to make this work. one would be to put it into a lock case, draw or something. no my favourite but it does work. A better way is to stat the shooter up range with his gun and have all of his mags at the start position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 This is a sport, not some kind of instruction. There is nothing about teaching in the the Principles. calm down peepz, I was just proving a point to a fellow shooter about general consencus on here about it not being a safe course of fire. BUT I will say that I do like to put challenges in stages about starting downrange and having to retreat to begin shooting. I know this is a shooting sport, but being able to move safely is part of the game also. I hate when local people bitch about "oh that's not safe having to move backwards". Most local matches i've been to have some kind of backwards movement. It teaches you how to move with your gun safely down range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Something like it is fairly common in 3 gun.. you'd never be directly down range of the muzzle, and the gun would be in some sort of 'box' to prevent the sweep. In 3 Gun it would be just the opposite, you'd abandon the pistol, then going down range to grab a rifle or shotgun. I don't see why a pistol only stage would be any different. It would need a little tweaking, rather than have it symetrical, have the pistol at the far lkeft or right side of the bay... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 When we get caught up in stage design and making the proper call from the various rule books we have in shooting...it's always good to remember the basics: Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punkin Chunker Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 (edited) Ok real quick question, would this be legal to start with an UNLOADED gun sitting on a barrel and your in front of the gun Take it from a different perspective: If you were a shooter, how comfortable would you be if the RO gave the command sequence, "ULSC," -- "Hammer down" -- "Now point the gun at your head". The start you describe isn't much different. Edited May 30, 2009 by Punkin Chunker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 calm down peepz, I was just proving a point to a fellow shooter about general consencus on here about it not being a safe course of fire. BUT I will say that I do like to put challenges in stages about starting downrange and having to retreat to begin shooting. I know this is a shooting sport, but being able to move safely is part of the game also. I hate when local people bitch about "oh that's not safe having to move backwards". Most local matches i've been to have some kind of backwards movement. It teaches you how to move with your gun safely down range. USPSA is a shooting sport not tactical preparation, leave that to IDPA. The problem with retreating stages is that you have two people retreating with the RO worrying about staying out of the shooters way and not concentrating on watching the shooters gun handling. It's just another monkey motion like carrying a package but don't get it above your waist. If Col Cooper could see what we have turned his sport into he would be rolling in his grave, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 calm down peepz, I was just proving a point to a fellow shooter about general consencus on here about it not being a safe course of fire. BUT I will say that I do like to put challenges in stages about starting downrange and having to retreat to begin shooting. I know this is a shooting sport, but being able to move safely is part of the game also. I hate when local people bitch about "oh that's not safe having to move backwards". Most local matches i've been to have some kind of backwards movement. It teaches you how to move with your gun safely down range. USPSA is a shooting sport not tactical preparation, leave that to IDPA. The problem with retreating stages is that you have two people retreating with the RO worrying about staying out of the shooters way and not concentrating on watching the shooters gun handling. It's just another monkey motion like carrying a package but don't get it above your waist. If Col Cooper could see what we have turned his sport into he would be rolling in his grave, IDPA is also a shooting sport not tactical preparation, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasmap Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Maybe just find a way to adjust this stage and have the shooter to the left or the right of the gun but behind the 180. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spray_N_Prey Posted May 30, 2009 Author Share Posted May 30, 2009 calm down peepz, I was just proving a point to a fellow shooter about general consencus on here about it not being a safe course of fire. BUT I will say that I do like to put challenges in stages about starting downrange and having to retreat to begin shooting. I know this is a shooting sport, but being able to move safely is part of the game also. I hate when local people bitch about "oh that's not safe having to move backwards". Most local matches i've been to have some kind of backwards movement. It teaches you how to move with your gun safely down range. USPSA is a shooting sport not tactical preparation, leave that to IDPA. The problem with retreating stages is that you have two people retreating with the RO worrying about staying out of the shooters way and not concentrating on watching the shooters gun handling. It's just another monkey motion like carrying a package but don't get it above your waist. If Col Cooper could see what we have turned his sport into he would be rolling in his grave, WOW, easy there Lone Ranger........Don't want anybody rolling around in their grave, don't worry I won't use that kind of start. If some people like having the exact same start ALL the time that's fine, when I make stages i'm going to throw something out of the norm in there. I mean c'mon stand in box, LAMR, stand in box some more, wait for beep, draw and go. It's fine, but occasionally I like to throw a "at start retrieve firearm from barrel A and starting mag from barrel B type of start. Something out of the norm. To each his own, but I have had more shooters come up to me and tell me how much they liked a stage like that then any other. If it makes our local shooters happy, it makes me happy. And most seem to like it, because it's not something they have seen before, can't you remember the first time you saw a Texas Star and about crapped yourself with delightment? Anywayz.........LPatterson, send me a PM on what's so wrong with this sport and why Col Mustard, I mean Cooper, hehehe would be so upset with the way the sport has evolved. I think it's a fine sport and don't really see anything broken (except for the classifiers). Back to the stage, once again, I didn't think for it to be safe but wanted to other inputs before I shot the idea down. Thanks, Shawn G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Baier Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 OP, I'm all for different start positions. As long as they are safe for "all" skill levels. Down range of the gun start positions are just not safe. Period! Common sense is written all over thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spray_N_Prey Posted May 31, 2009 Author Share Posted May 31, 2009 please read my responses I never thought this stage was safe, that's why I came on here to get opinions. I was only backing up my thinking as earlier posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 I'm not posting this to argue with the people who think it's an unsafe stage. However, I'd say that I would not want to be uprange of a person with a gun in his hand, rather than uprange of a gun, sitting there quietly, all alone. We abandon guns and move uprange of them all the time in multigun. Haven't seen one jump up and shoot somebody yet. We do point the muzzle towards the berm, but still, both the competitor and the RO are uprange of one or more by the time the course is finished in most cases. Just a little late night devil's advocate. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecutts Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 On one of Saul's Med Cup DVD's there is a stage just like this but the shooter starts in the middle of the corridor and the pistol is placed on a table/barrel to the shooters right. I don't see a big problem with it. At this years SMM3G I dumped loaded guns all over the place and ran up range with no problems. Oh but maybe the table/barrel does not safely ... okay I won't go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Baier Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 I'm not posting this to argue with the people who think it's an unsafe stage. However, I'd say that I would not want to be uprange of a person with a gun in his hand, rather than uprange of a gun, sitting there quietly, all alone. We abandon guns and move uprange of them all the time in multigun. Haven't seen one jump up and shoot somebody yet. We do point the muzzle towards the berm, but still, both the competitor and the RO are uprange of one or more by the time the course is finished in most cases. Just a little late night devil's advocate. Troy You're right about abandoning guns in multigun. But they usually have a dump tube and the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction. I'm just replying to the OP's stage diagram. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I'm not posting this to argue with the people who think it's an unsafe stage. However, I'd say that I would not want to be uprange of a person with a gun in his hand, rather than uprange of a gun, sitting there quietly, all alone. We abandon guns and move uprange of them all the time in multigun. Haven't seen one jump up and shoot somebody yet. We do point the muzzle towards the berm, but still, both the competitor and the RO are uprange of one or more by the time the course is finished in most cases. Just a little late night devil's advocate. Troy You're right about abandoning guns in multigun. But they usually have a dump tube and the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction. I'm just replying to the OP's stage diagram. Yeah, I get that. It's just that it says GUN in huge letters across the back, so it's hard to tell where it might be or how situated. This diagram may not be the optimal way to do this, but it could be made safe and legal, I think. YMMV, of course. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Baier Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I'm not posting this to argue with the people who think it's an unsafe stage. However, I'd say that I would not want to be uprange of a person with a gun in his hand, rather than uprange of a gun, sitting there quietly, all alone. We abandon guns and move uprange of them all the time in multigun. Haven't seen one jump up and shoot somebody yet. We do point the muzzle towards the berm, but still, both the competitor and the RO are uprange of one or more by the time the course is finished in most cases. Just a little late night devil's advocate. Troy You're right about abandoning guns in multigun. But they usually have a dump tube and the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction. I'm just replying to the OP's stage diagram. Yeah, I get that. It's just that it says GUN in huge letters across the back, so it's hard to tell where it might be or how situated. This diagram may not be the optimal way to do this, but it could be made safe and legal, I think. YMMV, of course. Troy Maybe it's a big gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spray_N_Prey Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 I'm not posting this to argue with the people who think it's an unsafe stage. However, I'd say that I would not want to be uprange of a person with a gun in his hand, rather than uprange of a gun, sitting there quietly, all alone. We abandon guns and move uprange of them all the time in multigun. Haven't seen one jump up and shoot somebody yet. We do point the muzzle towards the berm, but still, both the competitor and the RO are uprange of one or more by the time the course is finished in most cases. Just a little late night devil's advocate. Troy You're right about abandoning guns in multigun. But they usually have a dump tube and the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction. I'm just replying to the OP's stage diagram. Yeah, I get that. It's just that it says GUN in huge letters across the back, so it's hard to tell where it might be or how situated. This diagram may not be the optimal way to do this, but it could be made safe and legal, I think. YMMV, of course. Troy Maybe it's a big gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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