Issues with .40 S&W

[BigH]

I am waiting for a permit to clear and have been planning on purchasing a .40. This gun will be used for steel, and IPSC. I have a CZ 75 SP-01 in 9mm and want something with a higher power factor. I was going to break the bank and get and STI Edge but then started leaning toward the Glock 35. I would then add a weighted mag well and competition sights. This is not the issue just a little background.

I started doing some research and have been reading some really bad press on the Glock 35 due to the case head support which is not adequate for the high pressure of this caliber. I also started reading that the .40 is one of the most difficult calibers to reload.

My goal would be to reload but will definitely shoot factory ammo out of this gun until primers become available again. I am now starting to rethink .40 in lieu of .45. If I go with the .45 it will not be a Glock and will most likely be a Kimber, Para, or Springfield.

I would appreciate input on this topic

[CocoBolo]

Have you consider the CZ 75 Tactical Sport in 40. This makes an excellent Limited gun right out of the box.

I have one for sale on the USPSA Site, might consider a Trade on your SP01.

40 isn't as hard to load as 9 mm. You get a lot of rejects from range brass. I deprime and size in one operation then drop check them before loading. I use either N320 or WST for powder and have never had an issue with pressure. I know what pressure is I shoot a 38 Super Comp in Open and I have had primers blow thru and cases split and flat primers. Cured all that with N350.

I use Hornady Dies this helps a lot. Don't waste your money on the udersized dies they don't help.

Redding has a new G-RX die to fully size the 40, I have one on order.

[Merlin Orr]

Quit reading whatever you have been reading and buy the Glock if that is waht you wanted. VAST amounts of ammo are shot through .40 Glocks with no issues. Do not worry about it and go ahead with your plans.

[lugnut]

Don't waste your money on the udersized dies they don't help.

Redding has a new G-RX die to fully size the 40, I have one on order.

Actually I think they do help. The U-dies size lower on the case where much of the buldge exists. The G-RX die will certainly resize better but can't but used in lieu of the regular sizing dies.

To the OP WRT to .40 and Glocks... I claim BS on this. I will agree that many of the custom/STI type limited guns have much tighter chambers (not always the best for feeding less than perfect rounds). But- the G35 I have has been fine on brass and I only use reloads. I only load to 170PF so I'm not pushing the loads/brass. I have heard that the newer Glock barrels have tighter chambers... maybe this is true. I can also say many other guns offer the same "Glock" bulge as Glocks do! My Sigs used to leave a nice buldge as well. I think this is due to the fact they are mostly service guns- that are designed to opperate under adverse conditions very reliably.

[Graham Smith]

I started doing some research and have been reading some really bad press on the Glock 35 due to the case head support which is not adequate for the high pressure of this caliber.

Pretty much every .40 semi-auto has a chamber that is partially unsupported - it's in the nature of the feed ramp.

Glocks are slightly less supported than some others but they are also less subject to feed problems from varying OAL ammo.

As to reloading, if you are shooting from a Glock, you may have less problems with reloaded range ammo than some guns with tighter chambers.

{Caution - unsupported opinion follows}

I think that this whole business has been blown out of proportion by constant repetition until it has reached the level of an urban myth. Look at it this way, if it were really such a big deal, there would be thousands of kabooms all the time and Glock would have had the crud sued out of it by now.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Graham Smith

[blaster113]

Lots of other shooters on this forum use the undersize dies; they are cheap insurance to make sure your reloads will feed in your pistol. I use a U-die to resize the police range brass that I feed my .40 Edge. I used to use the size die from a Dillon set; occasionally I would have a misfeed. The U-die cured this completely. The police range's brass are 99% from Glocks, with a little MP5 brass mixed in.

[dapribek]

You can't go wrong with a 35. I too was concerned with the dreaded "kaboom". I actually have seen two of these in the past 8 years. To avoid this situation, I purchased an after market barrel from Storm Lake and have had no problems shooting lead and plated bullets. If you go this route, don't buy a match barrel, the chambers are sometimes too tight and this creates new issues. I also recommend getting a new trigger. I have a Vanek Custom Trigger and it has made it a lot easier to shoot the 35 well.

Loading .40 is not tricky at all. I load major and minor and have had no problems at all.

That being said, I also have an STI Edge. This is a much more accurate gun and it handles the recoil of major loads much much better than my .35. If you can afford the Edge, definitely buy it, you won't be disappointed. Hope this helps.

David

[CocoBolo]

Big H - The only way not to have feed issues with reloads is the plunk check aka SAMMI gauge. If it drops into the gauge then is will drop into the chamber.

There are a lot of people shooting Glocks well. Since you are already use to shooting a hinged trigger gun the adjustment to the Glock might not be that bad. The Glock is light weight and easy to drive but expect more recoil and muzzle flip. If you handle recoil very well then it won't slow you down that much.

The CZ 75 TS and the STI Edge are both heavy guns harder to drive but your muzzle doesn't point at the moon after each shot. The STI is a sliding Trigger the CZ is a hinged trigger. Your SP01 is likewise a weight forward balance and it is all steel heavier than the Glock. Most STI Edge guns run a tungsten guide rod for even more weight out front. Some like it snappy and some like it soft, I like it soft and flat which lets me shoot fast, one reason I started shooting open.

The one single most overlooked thing in picking a gun is DOES IT FIT YOU? With my STI guns I had to change the main spring housing so that the gun pointed to my natural point of aim. If the gun does not you are constantly fighting it and that slows you down. A lot of people don't fit the Glock, especially those with smaller hands.

Emanual Bragg can pony up with 23 rounds in his STI limited gun, if your limited gun can't get it up with 21 to 23 rounds you will be at a disadvantage on some field courses.

Good luck with what ever you choose.

See ya on the range.

[ima45dv8]

I consider an EGW "U" die to be a mandatory piece of safety equipment when reloading .40s, as much as wearing eye protection while pulling the handle on the press. It also just happens to do a dandy job of making brass that couldn't have passed a chamber check into serviceable ammo.

The .40 is a higher pressure round. No doubt about it. And case volume is critical. Any set back of the bullet will decrease the case volume present for powder ignition and drive pressures to an insane and unsafe level in a non-logrithmic manner. The "U" die slightly undersizes the diameter of the brass so that set back is no longer an issue. Look at some rounds that were reloaded after sizing with a "U" die and you'll notice a slight Coke bottle effect. That bullet will not move back into the case.

Glocks and .40s survive quite well in this shooting community, and given the sheer volume of rounds fired by USPSA shooters each year, if there was a consistent problem we'd be talking about little else.

[uscbigdawg]

Big H - Another vote for a CZ pistol instead of the Glock. Nothing to do with G35's and chambers. Simply, that it's a similar pistol to what you have and the transition will much easier and faster.

As for the issues with Glocks I'll say this as a G22 and former G35 owner. It's not a concern. There is a bulge and there are a few ways to handle it but as far as safety goes, you're fine with basic and safe reloading practices. There are a LARGE number of shooters in the various sports using G35's with no issues.

Let us know if you have any other questions.

Rich

[chemepharmd]

I'll have to agree with Rich. The CZ should be an easier transition for you. Of course, I own a G34, G35, & G22 and don't own a CZ at the moment.

I can shoot any of my reloads in any of the Glocks safely and without problems. I use a full-length sizing die, but as stated, there are several other ways to take care of the bulge. As long as you do your homework, it's not an issue, and the guns are both safe and reliable.

Good luck whichever way you choose to go!

[Bacon]

I hear a lot about the unsupported chambers of glocks, and wonder how many of those kabooms were beacuse of brass that was reloded to many times. I use +p+ ammo at work, and we have shot thousands upon thousands without a problem.

[Paladin]

for steel and ipsc go with the .40 over the .45; lighter bullet, major power specs, higher velocity.. lots of field experience with the round and the debugging has been done. Go with the gun that suits your style, recoil behaviour, natural point of aim, hands etc. try them out!! we can only tell you our preferences but that means nothing..

Good luck!!!

[jay.hosford]

I havn't had any problems reloading teh 40, but in my glock 35 I have had a lot better luck with the full jacketed bullets vs the plated or led bullets.

[GrumpyOne]

I don't own a Glock (just don't like the feel of them), but the ones I have shot were excellent. I do however own two old Springfield P9 Factory Comps in .40 S&W, which is just a CZ75 with a comp. I absolutely love them. As far as re-loading the .40S&W, after 20,000 rounds, no dreaded Kaboom (and I have loaded some very hot loads!), and they are both still kicking. I do believe the CZ's barrel may be a bit more supported than the Glocks', but not enough to matter. If and when you start re-loading, try anywhere from 5.8 grains to 6.7 grains of Alliant Power Pistol over a 165 grain trn cn bullet. As for load data for the .40, try Jeff Maas site for IPSC loads, here's the link: http://www.k8nd.com/documents/hl40sw.pdf

Just be careful and follow what has already been done!

[Justsomeguy]

Big H...

Don't be afraid of the .40! For reloading it is a very versatile cartridge with a very wide selection of bullet weights and many powders can be used in it. If you are just starting out reloading it, I would stick with more kind of quick to medium speed powders rather than the very fast ones. The people who seem to get into problems with the 40 (and God knows, there were plenty who used to do bad things with .45's too with fast powders) are the ones who refuse to use anything but really fast powders because they can save like $2 a thousand rounds on powder costs. Then, a tight chamber, or a setback bullet in a round, or just the occasional 1 in a million detonation for some cause unknown, and their day is ruined.

As to the Glock-ed brass thing... For about $150 or so you can replace the factory barrel with an aftermarket one. Storm Lake, as recommended by Dapribek is a good choice, but there are others as well. I just put one in an XD and I liked it... a total "drop in" solution. The advantage of the aftermarket barrel is manifold. You will have few if any casehead expansion problems, you can shoot lead bullets which a stock Glock barrel will sometimes not appreciate, it will be more accurate, and it will generally NOT affect reliability. Since there are a lot of Glocks around, you might be able to pick up a good used one someone did not like because of grip angle or some other reason and put in a trigger, barrel, and new sights for a total cost of little more than a new unmodded Glock which you would still have to spend money to upgrade, and you would have a superior pistol. I've had a Glock a few years ago, but for some reason I personally shoot XD's better but I have nothing against them and there are a lot of them around that don't give any problems to their owners.

[Walküre]

If you need any more reasons to side with CZs...

20+1 rounds of .40S&W goodness!

I used to have a USP in .40S&W, which I did find rather snappy. The TS, on the other hand, is not snappy at all - probably due to its tank-like all-steel construction.

I don't yet reload for the .40, but plan to. The reason I don't right now is that I haven't order dies yet - and that's because I still can't get primers - I still have some WLP on hand, as I've reloaded .45ACP for years, but didn't get started loading anything using small primers until just as the whole supply started to dry up.

[GrumpyOne]

If you need any more reasons to side with CZs...

20+1 rounds of .40S&W goodness!

I used to have a USP in .40S&W, which I did find rather snappy. The TS, on the other hand, is not snappy at all - probably due to its tank-like all-steel construction.

I don't yet reload for the .40, but plan to. The reason I don't right now is that I haven't order dies yet - and that's because I still can't get primers - I still have some WLP on hand, as I've reloaded .45ACP for years, but didn't get started loading anything using small primers until just as the whole supply started to dry up.

Many years back, Springfield Armory was importing some of those CZ clones, called them P9's. I have two of the factory comp models, some of the best shooting guns I own, will eat everything I stick down it's throat, and, even though Springfield no longer makes parts for them, I can still get parts from CZ!

[Alaskapopo]

Quit reading whatever you have been reading and buy the Glock if that is waht you wanted. VAST amounts of ammo are shot through .40 Glocks with no issues. Do not worry about it and go ahead with your plans.

Be very careful when reloading 40 sw in a Glock. Been there for 2 Glock KB's personally (One was a friend one was me) You are ok if you are using new brass. You are also ok if you are using reduced loads. The problem comes with over working the brass int he unsupported case area.

A picture is worth a 1000 words.

Pat

That was with factory ammo. I will not own a Glock 40 for carry or for play. Glocks are great pistols in 9mm. Everyone I know who has reloaded the 40 for Glocks in any volume has experienced a KB at some point.

Pat

Edited July 27, 2009 by Alaskapopo

[CocoBolo]

At just about any major match you will find more Limited shooters than any other division and 99% of them are shooting 40 and 95% are reloading. I reloaded about 15,000 to 20,000 40's in the past year. I blew the top off of two cases. So I'm retiring some of my older brass. The EGW U die will help a bit with the buldged brass but the cure is the Redding G-RX its a 100% cure.

The safest way to reload 40 is to use Lead or Moly coated bullets as you can make power factor with quite a bit less powder. In a 180gr jacketed its 5.0 gr of N320 but a 185gr Precision Moly will make major with only 4.4gr of N320. Less pressure, less recoil, and less flip = go faster and safer. Load them as long as will fit and run in your gun.

You have already established your preference for a heavy gun with the SP01, forget the plastic lite weights, so the choice has to be if your going to shoot single stack or limited. In limited by order of cost I recommend 2 guns CZ 75TS, STI Edge. A used Edge shoud run about $1500.

[Pezco]

BigH,

The Glocks make good all around guns as evident by a couple of USPSA National champions shooting them. The "Glock Bulge" you are refering to on the 40 brass is very real, but can be sized out with the Redding G-Rx sizing die or other as mentioned above. The 40 cal Glock will allow you to compete in more USPSA divisions than a 45 due to mag capacity.

I own a CZ Shadow, CDP Kimber, Glocks, SV, S&W's and some custom guns and think the trigger feel of the S_I guns is as good as it gets for a factory gun. My recommendation would be to get an STI Edge or the like in 40 cal and save time sizing the brass.

[Rolex]

Glocks are fine- just people-some- don't like them!

I have had several over the last 15 years- never

any problems, have used both new and reloaded

ammo. NEVER a KBOOM. I also reload lots of GLOCK

.40 brass from the range in my G35 and SV limited.

As far as the bulge roll size them if you want, get a

Udie from EGW or even use the factory dies with

your press! BUT what ever you use- drop check them

in the bl of the gun!!

Or if the bl. worries you- buy a new one

[MarkCO]

As one of the first people (more than 15 years ago) who scientifically and independantly investigated this issue and then caught heck for years from the Kool-aid faithful, let me give you my take on it. For those of you who don't know who I am...

1. I wrote Chapter 4 in the Book "The Glock in Competition" that deals with this issue.

2. I have investigated over 200 blown Glocks.

3. I had a Glock KB in my own hand.

4. I have been hired by LEAs as a consultant on this issue.

5. I have been hired by two major barrel manufacturers to review and modify their heat treatment processes for their Glock barrels.

6. I have the professional certifcations and reputation standing behind my analysis.

7. I was one the the original GlockTalk moderators (so I have seen it "all").

8. My data and testing has been used as support for all kinds of things, sometimes wrongly used.

9. I have owned (still do) every generation and model of .40 S&W Glock pistol.

10. Many of the gunwriters, both print and internet, who originally disagreed, now agree and many actually use my data or quote my writings.

The Glock manual mandates that you use only premium factory ammo, as does every other firearm manufacturer who has had a lawyer review their manual. When I review safety manuals, I also include this instruction. This limits liability and removes blame on the gun manufacturer for poor quality ammo. There is commercial ammo with lead slugs BTW.

Metric Glocks (9mm and 10mm) have a thicker chamber at the sides (which is where a KB will occur) than their respective sisters (.40 S&W and .45 ACP). For this reason, they will take a much higher pressure before chamber rupture.

It is not the metallurgy of the barrels. I have looked at a LOT and sorry, this is a non-starter. There may have been a few that had bad metal, but that is manufacturing, not design.

MOST puported KBs are actually case head separations, or brass ruptures. This comes from over-worked brass, which factory Glock .40 barrels do more of than any other (bulge). If you reload reasonably with powders that don't spike the pressure curves, then you can reduce this. Weak springs tend to exacerbate this. Aftermarket match barrels minimize this. The new Glocks have more case head support and it is a non-issue from the get go.

Actual KBs, which are less common than case ruptures, are due to a gross over-pressurization. The chamber splits along the sides and in many cases the frame is ruined. These are due to one of two things: the cartidge was made wrong (fault of loader) or the barrel was constricted (fault of user due to poor maintenance). If a Glock KBs, in all cases so far, I have been able to determine cause. Barrel constriction due to leading was one of the leading causes of KBs early on in the .40 Glocks. Most of these were real (10K to 30K rounds/year) shooters who competed and used lead slugs. The configuration of the rifling in the factory Glocks is prone to excesive leading which will increase pressures significantly.

I have a EAA Limited in .40 S&W that I have shot a few time in USPA Limited. However, the G35 is my personal preference. I don't shoot it as fast as the EAA, but I like it. I have all of the heavy metal stuff in it, trigger job, Heinie sights, Bar-Sto barrel etc. With a 9mm conversion barrel, I shot 3-gun matches with it. I've loaded bunches of .40 S&W ammo and I find it rather easy to load.