Lee King Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I worked on bill drills over the weekend because I get horrible trigger freeze when I try to go fast. Ultimately, I found my times to be faster when I relaxed vs. when I TRIED to go fast. No shocker there. But the best splits I could manage with any consistency is about .18-.20ish which seems on the slow side. Something I have noticed while dry firing is, I just can not seem to get my finger to go fast. Relaxed. Tense. Doesn't matter. When doing a dry fire el pres or vice pres I even catch myself barely moving my finger for the 6th shot if at all. I experimented during dry fire tonight and tried to completely let my hand relax and focus on nothing but the feel of the trigger. All of the sudden I could go fast. However, the thumb on my right had had drifted off into space. Instead of my thumb resting on the safety. It was pointing out like a flag. Put my thumb back on the safety and it felt like I was pulling the trigger in molasses. As I just discovered this tonight, I haven't tried this in live fire. Before I do though, anyone see any immediate issues with doing this? To me it seems like the gun will want to flip unpredictably. Part two of my ramblings would be, how do you guys get your finger to move faster? Exercises? Drills? I wish there was a good way to record the splits during dry fire so I could see how far off dry fire splits are from live fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip62 Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I carry a click type pen around all day, and when ever I'm not around other people, I'm clicking the heck out of it. Builds stamina and speed. Remember to let the pen completely return. TGO says sometimes he hits the trigger guard resetting the trigger for the next shot, so don't try to move less, just faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I have shot a couple area matches with world class GM shooters, I have yet to see one go faster than a .25 with a limited or production gun. Splits won't win matches, if you can shoot .20's you can win the nationals, splits won't hold you back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Gaines Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 .20's are good, .15's are better, but like hsmith said its not going to win you the match. If anything try to speed your transitions by .05 or more and shoot .20's and you will be ok. But remember to see your sights and call your shots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee King Posted April 1, 2009 Author Share Posted April 1, 2009 I have shot a couple area matches with world class GM shooters, I have yet to see one go faster than a .25 with a limited or production gun. Splits won't win matches, if you can shoot .20's you can win the nationals, splits won't hold you back. Thanks for the input so far What I notice at matches is, I will place anywhere from 80-95% locally on field courses. I have really been working on shooting on the move and refining movement (i.e. coming into and leaving a static position etc. I have a long way to go) But "standards" type courses and hoser stages the percentage drops off to the 65-75% range. When I watch video of myself (there is one posted in the vids section today) and listen to comments, people say I have a "cadence" to the shooting. What I hear sounds... forced. I try to only shoot as fast as I can see and I guess the cadence is what comes from that. But in the hoser and close standards stages I either trigger lock or can't seem to go as fast as some of the other guys. I see the shot. I just can't make it happen fast enough. Interestingly enough, it used to be the other way around. I sucked at the field courses but my scores on classifiers and short courses were far above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Griffin Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I remember a grand total of three close targets at Nationals, where you could go as fast as your finger allowed. You're entirely right that movement and planning are where it's at, that's why I get called a sandbagger. I just don't train classifier skills nearly as much as I train field skills, so I suck at standing still and shooting. H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee King Posted April 1, 2009 Author Share Posted April 1, 2009 (edited) This is a video that illustrates the issue for me. It is a hoser stage. I should be smoking the first 3 targets. Some in the middle maybe not so much because there is some hardcover and a few shots are on the longer side. But at the end there are 3 targets within arms reach over a fence. This stage has a smattering of all of my trigger issues. 1st 3 targets I just can't seem to shoot any faster. In the middle I trigger lock twice (and racked the gun both times instead of just letting out the trigger). I distinctly remember seeing the targets and getting all jacked up to shoot them and gripped the crap out of the gun. Then at the end you can hear the splits and to me it sounds "forced". Not smooth and certainly could be faster. I told myself to relax and focus on the trigger. I didn't freeze but I just couldn't go any faster either. edit - to add 2nd example video Edited April 1, 2009 by Lee King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Hepworth Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 on the 2nd video,...I think it was a common mistake,...you want to shoot 2rds per target,...brain and finger just got confused. I like the first video,...your draw was clean and fast,..and on the 2nd array of targets,..you gave respect to the hard cover,..you can see /hear the cadence difference,..split had to slow down as you took a sight picture for each shot,..that is text book of how to do it. I stopped trying to get my splits down up close..and just go as fast as I can with out missing, trying to get as many A's in production,..my splits slow down on hard cover, (usually),..and where there is a penalty target next to a scoring target. Recently (last season),..my practice included the Burkett excercise of putting a target at 7-15-25yards,...(3 targets),...and go thru the drills from the How to PRactice Dvd. I find it showed my weaknesses and strengths,...I know what I need for each distance to get good hits, and how easy it is to miss at 15yards when I don't see what I need to ( I got too focused on splits).....what I did realize is how my transitions can get fast going far to near targets,...my transition from 15 to 7y is almost identical to the split time on the 7Y target. It helps on some stages where you get that near to far array of targets,...most people get into a position and hammer the up close target because they feel it is easier,..although they could see the far target first. Easier to speed up then slow down (for me),..so i engage far to near. In Brians book he describes the different target distances and what they require,...that helps me break down a stage as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 As stated earlier, fast splits doesn't win matches. I may be off but you appear to be a little tense on the classifier video. Last year I has a decent score for this one on file when we shot a match that had the same classifier. Since I already had a good score I knew this one would be a duplicate, lo and behold I relaxed and you guessed it, shot it the best I ever had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee King Posted April 1, 2009 Author Share Posted April 1, 2009 I hear what everybody is saying about what wins the match. I have been focusing on transitions, shooting on the move, better stage management etc. For me, at this point I'm starting to come back around to other weak areas. My scores on classifiers and standards type stages have fallen off and I'm looking to get those consistent with others (I'm not counting the 0 I took on the last classifier.. THAT one was all mental!). The classifier in the 2nd video is Can You Count (06-03) and worth 100 points. At least at a 5 stage local match 100 points is nothing to sneeze at. I see more opportunity for improvement in this area. Breaking down the first video to what I saw and felt, there were 3 distinct sections. The first 3 targets at the draw. The middle section. Then the 3 targets at the end. I have my issue with trigger freeze in the middle and I get that I need to relax on those. The 1st and last section is where I feel like collectively I lost a second. Those targets at the beginning were right there and I only saw the outline of the sights. I remember feeling like I couldn't pull the trigger as fast as I could see the shots. Same thing at the end. The shots are faster, but if I had an A, M, or GM shooter on video I'd bet there would be a significant difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 You are losing much more time on trigger freeze than you will ever gain on splits. You need to relax and just let the splits happpen. Don't try to ride the sear because the faster you try to go, the slower you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Ok spilts will not win you a match, I doubt, except on VERY close targets, I ever shoot faster than .20's. However the tension that causes trigger freeze is deadly to good scores. You must learn to shoot without worrying about going fast. Build your speed in practice, then relax when shooting. Change your focus when practicing, instead of trying to go fast, place your attention or focus on where the tesion is when doing a fast drill. Try this: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...p;hl=the+twenty It is a drill that requires going fast, but don't think about being fast. The targets are at 5 yds so it is quick no matter what, but you want A's. During the drill, feel the tension in your arms, chest, stomach, hands, wrists, legs, see where it comes from. Alternatively try shooing quickly into the backstop, take away the target and just see how fast you can rock the trigger, again pay attention to where the tension is in your body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I know others have said it but RELAX, just shoot, don't try to go fast. The reason I say this as it reminded me of a video, that I can't find now, of the OH sectional in 07 when they had can you count as the classifier there. I tried to go so fast I would trigger freeze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 +1 on splits not mattering-they sure sound good when someone is really behind the gun. i could never get under .16 consistently. but, what's really strange is i tried it with hoser rifle stuff and my splits on my AR are faster...maybe i'm weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Speedy vision > speedy trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Speedy vision > speedy trigger. +1 Anybody trying to go fast is likely tense. Anybody that is tense...isn't likely seeing nearly as much as they could. Vision drives the shooting. I think some get hung up on that concept because they think they need to wait around to see/verify some predetermined thing. Instead, the vision is constant. We need to be aware of it and let it tell us what is going on. Observe. When we observe, we can know. When we have expectations, worry about outcomes, and/or TRY to do something...we take away from our ability to observe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 In specific relation to the trigger speed question, if you awareness is greater, if your vision is faster, your finger won't have to get faster. The best splits I've shot don't seem fast at all. My vision is seeing things at a greater rate, and therefore nothing seems fast. Look at it later on tape and it will be a nice .15 split, but at the time it doesn't appear so to my mind because I'm just pressing the trigger as I see the sights on the target. There is no preception of speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 There is no preception of speed. No perception either. Seriously though, that's spot on. You can only shoot as fast as you can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Speedy vision > speedy trigger. +1 Anybody trying to go fast is likely tense. Anybody that is tense...isn't likely seeing nearly as much as they could. Vision drives the shooting. I think some get hung up on that concept because they think they need to wait around to see/verify some predetermined thing. Instead, the vision is constant. We need to be aware of it and let it tell us what is going on. Observe. When we observe, we can know. When we have expectations, worry about outcomes, and/or TRY to do something...we take away from our ability to observe. I think people get confused with vision. Because a motion picture that shows X frames per second fools the eyes into believing that the motion is constant, people believe we SEE in X frames per second. However we do see constantly. A good expample, a couple of shooters lately have told me that that the gun they were shooting was diving on recoil (one was my IMM). They were seeing the dot return from underneath the target. However watching from the side, I could clearly see the gun was lifting on recoil, then dropping under point of aim from excess tension. They were seeing only part of the action. This is likely caused by blinking or flinching, but it happens quickly enough that it fools them into thinking something is happening that is not. If they were more aware during the firing process they should be able to tell me that the dot moves down (or up) on recoil, not just where it returns from. What surprises me is that they just accept the partial vision and don't seek out why they didn't see the whole motion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Don't worry about your split times... you are not going to lose a match on splits. You will loose it throwing a double with a mike. When you are ready your body will be too. .17-.20 if fast enough... I would bet you can't call them faster than that anyway, so don't get twisted about it. JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I said it on another thread, if you think the answers to all your stage times are in your splits on target, you are missing the bigger picture and practicing the wrong stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limitless13 Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 (edited) As others have said, I wouldn't worry much about split times. One of the things that I did notice in you classifier video is how much movement your gun *seems* to have. To me it looks like you could strengthen your grip a little to manage the recoil a bit easier. I compared your video to the video of Travis Tomasie demonstrating the reload and his shots have quite a bit less vertical movement. Could be loads and all that of course, but food for thought. Travis Tomasie Video Edited April 1, 2009 by Limitless13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Stoeger Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Fast splits are cool! (I think you guys are missing this nugget) I wish I had a "split finger" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Stoeger Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 .20's are good, .15's are better, but like hsmith said its not going to win you the match. If anything try to speed your transitions by .05 or more and shoot .20's and you will be ok. But remember to see your sights and call your shots Fast splits may not win the match, but they do get the girls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I used to do splits to impress the girls. I'd probably pull a groin muscle doing them now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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